Thread: getting support for developers
Hi there,
are there any ways to help pg-developers to get support from
company, which willing to support their work ? The problem is that
company (european) needs invoice from legal organisation,
not from developers. Of course, we're interested in minimization of
any overheads :) I and Teodor are developers and not willing to be a
"juridical persons" :) Does SPI could help here ?
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:42:17 +0300 (MSK) Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su> wrote: > Hi there, > > are there any ways to help pg-developers to get support from > company, which willing to support their work ? The problem is that > company (european) needs invoice from legal organisation, > not from developers. Of course, we're interested in minimization of > any overheads :) I and Teodor are developers and not willing to be a > "juridical persons" :) Does SPI could help here ? Yes there are contracts that we can put in place if you have a specific sponsor in mind. Also PGEU may be able to help you here. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Regards, > Oleg > _____________________________________________________________ > Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru), > Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia > Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ > phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83 > - -- The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL political pundit | Mocker of Dolphins -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH1co6ATb/zqfZUUQRAmuYAJ0RxO262BpW+BFzjU8CpffBnWb7wwCgnRYS GguzNbLHLQ/bS6pbaBQolo0= =l5UQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Josh, > Yes there are contracts that we can put in place if you have a specific > sponsor in mind. Also PGEU may be able to help you here. For Russia, it had better be PG-EU. NPO law for the US is still stuck in the Cold War. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Josh,
>
>> Yes there are contracts that we can put in place if you have a specific
>> sponsor in mind. Also PGEU may be able to help you here.
>
> For Russia, it had better be PG-EU. NPO law for the US is still stuck in
> the Cold War.
I'm afraid PG-EU is mature enough. We have many contracts with US companies and
had no problem.
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 04:54:32PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:42:17 +0300 (MSK) > Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su> wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > are there any ways to help pg-developers to get support from > > company, which willing to support their work ? The problem is that > > company (european) needs invoice from legal organisation, > > not from developers. Of course, we're interested in minimization of > > any overheads :) I and Teodor are developers and not willing to be a > > "juridical persons" :) Does SPI could help here ? > > Yes there are contracts that we can put in place if you have a specific > sponsor in mind. Also PGEU may be able to help you here. I don't know if we can easily do that. I don't know if it's just in Sweden or if it's a EU-wide thing, but I think it's EU-wide. But i you cannot prove that you are a legal organisation as well, you end up basically being employed by PGEU in this case, which means that we have to pay a bunch of taxes and stuff. And the amount of paperwork to deal with is just insane... It's basically a case of both employer-tax and VAT handling, and this is why the other european companies are requiring it. Now, if you were a regsitered russian company, we could probably do something for you. But in that case, the european companies probably could do that directly as well. The easiest way inside europe would be for you to register as "sole merchant" (I think the term is). But I have no idea how easy or even helpful that would be in Russia. //Magnus
Ciao Magnus,
I don't know if we can easily do that. I don't know if it's just in Sweden
or if it's a EU-wide thing, but I think it's EU-wide. But i you cannot
prove that you are a legal organisation as well, you end up basically being
employed by PGEU in this case, which means that we have to pay a bunch of
taxes and stuff. And the amount of paperwork to deal with is just insane...
I guess it all depends on international agreements between the contributor's country (and jurisdicial form) and Postgres Europe's country, in this case France.
I would assume that PGEU gathers money from sponsorships and decides how to spend that money (which is a different issue). Buying code from developers could be an activity. I would assume that in EU, VAT is not an issue. I do not know with Russia, but I assume that taxes should be paid by each contributors individually at the end of the year - not on the single contract. In any case, a professional advisor is needed.
In general PGEU could commission a feature development to a developer or a group (again, I do not want to consider for the moment the way to handle this - which is a completely different problem), the developer invoices PGEU, PGEU pays. :)
As an alternative, PGEU could setup a "shelf" of proposed features on the website, and let "companies" buy it directly.
For instance:
1) Developer 1 says: I am willing to do this and I want 5k euro (gross) for that.
2) PGEU posts this offer on the website in a dedicated area saying that companies can sponsor that feature for 5k + X euro (X euro is decided by the board and is the price for the company banner on the website shelf for the period of development + 1 year after the completion)
3) The company that sponsors that:
* gets in touch with the developer 1 and organises the contract for 5k euro
* pays another X euro to PGEU as a donation/sponsorship which puts up a banner on the shelf saying that company X is sponsoring this feature and allows the company to show a PG code sponsor on their web page
Of course this is just a rough idea, which needs a detailed analysis and discussion within - at least - PGEU direction.
Ciao,
Gabriele
On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:03:03AM +0100, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:
> Ciao Magnus,
>
> I don't know if we can easily do that. I don't know if it's just in Sweden
> > or if it's a EU-wide thing, but I think it's EU-wide. But i you cannot
> > prove that you are a legal organisation as well, you end up basically
> > being
> > employed by PGEU in this case, which means that we have to pay a bunch of
> > taxes and stuff. And the amount of paperwork to deal with is just
> > insane...
>
>
> I guess it all depends on international agreements between the contributor's
> country (and jurisdicial form) and Postgres Europe's country, in this case
> France.
Yes. But I think the rules are reasonably similar across europe these days
- though of course not identical. I can only speak from the perspective of
the Swedish rules, which I know.
> I would assume that PGEU gathers money from sponsorships and decides how to
> spend that money (which is a different issue). Buying code from developers
> could be an activity. I would assume that in EU, VAT is not an issue. I do
The question is if you get treated as a company or as an individual. if you
are treated as a company, VAT is very much an issue. Unless both ends of
the transaction can provide the other one with a registered VAT number, you
have to pay VAT on the transaction.
> not know with Russia, but I assume that taxes should be paid by each
> contributors individually at the end of the year - not on the single
> contract. In any case, a professional advisor is needed.
That is for the employees tax, not the employers tax. The big question is:
do you get treated as an employee.
Having the contributor in this case being registered as his own company
("sole merchant") removes the uncertainty.
But as you say, we'd need professional advice before we say what we *can*
do. I'm just saying it may be a lot less easy than it seems.
> In general PGEU could commission a feature development to a developer or a
> group (again, I do not want to consider for the moment the way to handle
> this - which is a completely different problem), the developer invoices
> PGEU, PGEU pays. :)
Yes, this is extremely straight-forward if said developer is registered as
a company...
I'll just snip the other ideas which are good, but which reallyi is
something for the future :-)
//Magnus
Ciao Magnus,
In any case, we can't do this. We need professional advice and an accountant (or accounting firm) that follows PGEU activity from a financial and fiscal point of view. If you remember, when we (Italians) proposed the European association to be based in Italy, we provided a list of expenses which included full support (all year) by professional accountants.
I assume PGEU will gather a sensible amount of money when sponsorships will be handled, and in that case I strongly suggest we get a professional accountant (maybe JPA will be more precise - in any case we could move this discussion on our list).
Exactly. I guess it is no point of us going any further on this, as we need skilled professionals for this sort of activity.
Yes, I agree. :)
Insane ideas. Which very often come up on my mind. :) - If you only knew what I am thinking for the next PGDay ... :P
Ciao,
Gabriele
Yes. But I think the rules are reasonably similar across europe these days
- though of course not identical. I can only speak from the perspective of
the Swedish rules, which I know.
In any case, we can't do this. We need professional advice and an accountant (or accounting firm) that follows PGEU activity from a financial and fiscal point of view. If you remember, when we (Italians) proposed the European association to be based in Italy, we provided a list of expenses which included full support (all year) by professional accountants.
I assume PGEU will gather a sensible amount of money when sponsorships will be handled, and in that case I strongly suggest we get a professional accountant (maybe JPA will be more precise - in any case we could move this discussion on our list).
But as you say, we'd need professional advice before we say what we *can*
do. I'm just saying it may be a lot less easy than it seems.
Exactly. I guess it is no point of us going any further on this, as we need skilled professionals for this sort of activity.
I'll just snip the other ideas which are good, but which reallyi is
something for the future :-)
Yes, I agree. :)
Insane ideas. Which very often come up on my mind. :) - If you only knew what I am thinking for the next PGDay ... :P
Ciao,
Gabriele
Guys,
thanks for your attention !
It's clear that the problem is important and not very specific, so
we (pg-community) should have a legal solution for this.
Oleg
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Gabriele Bartolini wrote:
> Ciao Magnus,
>
> Yes. But I think the rules are reasonably similar across europe these days
>> - though of course not identical. I can only speak from the perspective of
>> the Swedish rules, which I know.
>
>
> In any case, we can't do this. We need professional advice and an accountant
> (or accounting firm) that follows PGEU activity from a financial and fiscal
> point of view. If you remember, when we (Italians) proposed the European
> association to be based in Italy, we provided a list of expenses which
> included full support (all year) by professional accountants.
>
> I assume PGEU will gather a sensible amount of money when sponsorships will
> be handled, and in that case I strongly suggest we get a professional
> accountant (maybe JPA will be more precise - in any case we could move this
> discussion on our list).
>
> But as you say, we'd need professional advice before we say what we *can*
>> do. I'm just saying it may be a lot less easy than it seems.
>
>
> Exactly. I guess it is no point of us going any further on this, as we need
> skilled professionals for this sort of activity.
>
> I'll just snip the other ideas which are good, but which reallyi is
>> something for the future :-)
>>
>
> Yes, I agree. :)
>
> Insane ideas. Which very often come up on my mind. :) - If you only knew
> what I am thinking for the next PGDay ... :P
>
> Ciao,
> Gabriele
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
Le Tuesday 11 March 2008, Gabriele Bartolini a écrit : > Ciao Magnus, > > Yes. But I think the rules are reasonably similar across europe these days > > > - though of course not identical. I can only speak from the perspective > > of the Swedish rules, which I know. > > In any case, we can't do this. We need professional advice and an > accountant (or accounting firm) that follows PGEU activity from a financial > and fiscal point of view. If you remember, when we (Italians) proposed the > European association to be based in Italy, we provided a list of expenses > which included full support (all year) by professional accountants. It is totally free to get information for that from the tax department of/in France. And not very hard (get a meet or go directly then take 1 or 2 hours to talk with the civil servant.) > > I assume PGEU will gather a sensible amount of money when sponsorships will > be handled, and in that case I strongly suggest we get a professional > accountant (maybe JPA will be more precise - in any case we could move this > discussion on our list). > > But as you say, we'd need professional advice before we say what we *can* > > > do. I'm just saying it may be a lot less easy than it seems. > > Exactly. I guess it is no point of us going any further on this, as we need > skilled professionals for this sort of activity. > > I'll just snip the other ideas which are good, but which reallyi is > > > something for the future :-) > > Yes, I agree. :) > > Insane ideas. Which very often come up on my mind. :) - If you only knew > what I am thinking for the next PGDay ... :P > > Ciao, > Gabriele -- Cédric Villemain Administrateur de Base de Données Cel: +33 (0)6 74 15 56 53 http://dalibo.com - http://dalibo.org