Thread: Re: [pgsql-www] PostgreSQL.org Design Proposal
I'm one of the people that enthusiastically offered to help, and have since jumped to 'lurker' status. There's a couple of reasons for this, and I know enough people to be confident that this is a common theme. Most folks willing to help out here are of a technical nature, and when these people find out the new site is a homegrown effort they lose interest immediately. Why in the world would someone want to build their own when there are hundreds, HUNDREDS of portal tooklits and CMS to choose from? To an experienced developer this is like slowly removing your fingernails with a dull razor that was just dipped in fresh lemon juice. Second, it seems there are a couple people that insist that everything is going fine, and that (more or less) everything must be done their way(TM). There are other people that are convinced that nothing is getting done, and appear so desperate that they will take anything that they can get. The disparity to me (a relative outsider) indicates that whatever effort I put into this is at risk of either being duplicated or dropped altogether before ever seeing daylight. I joined the Mambo CMS team beause I realized it was an interesting-but-pointless exercise creating my own CMS, but mainly to also wire in support for Postgres ;-) Drupal, and others could also fit the bill. I just can't see that the website for a database is so special that it requires a ground-up approach of cobbled-together libraries and proprietary code. Third, the 'web presence' of the Postgres community as a whole is a mess. Gborg, pgfoundry, www, advocacy, how many other sites are there? And in what state? Sheesh, this is as bad as python. (slaps forehead) My experience with Mambo is that you can really only have one 'official website' (and tightly link that to the forums), and only one 'dev site' (which for us is mamboforge.net). Then there is no confusion, no duplication of effort, and a stronger web identity for Postgres. We just had someone submit a graphical layout proposal for the new site (which I considered brilliant), hoping to help. They were immediately told 'thanks, but no thanks'. ? Then all the compliments started coming in, and I saw many people agree that this was a great design - clean, professional, aesthetic. But there were a couple people that said it won't work - and also explained the rather non-standard requirements that they have, and why they didn't like it. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would love to help out, but after a couple weeks of reading the threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really welcome. Who is in charge, what is the plan, and how can I (realistically) help? -- Mitch On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:52:53 +0100, Dave Page <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Robby Russell > > Sent: 28 October 2004 02:20 > > To: Greg Sabino Mullane > > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] PostgreSQL.org > > Design Proposal > > > > > > So, what is the real issue? Organization? Prehistoric code > > that isn't fun to maintain? Lack of people? > > People. Lots of people volunteer to help and then do nothing. Few, such > as Alexey, do put in a lot of effort. The other 'main' people in the > group are Marc, Robert, Devrim and myself, all of whom do what we can > but have fingers in a lot of other aspects of the project as well at the > moment - for instance, Devrim is working on translations and RPMs for > the core server and projects like pgAdmin, Robert works on phpPgAdmin, > the weekly news and the foundation, and I work on pgAdmin, psqlODBC, and > the Win32 installer. > > If you can rustle up volunteers to work on the content, and minimal > amount of coding to integrate it into the site that would certainly > speed things up. > > The 'howto' can be found at > http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/cvs/co.php/portal/README > > The 'todo' can be found at http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo > > > > Regards, Dave > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match >
Hi, Mitch Pirtle wrote: > I just can't see that the website for a database is so > special that it requires a ground-up approach of cobbled-together > libraries and proprietary code. The code is under BSD license and it uses several PEAR packages, not "cobbled-together libraries". You know what PEAR is, eh? > I would love to help out, but after a couple weeks of reading the > threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really welcome. Who is > in charge, what is the plan, and how can I (realistically) help? You are currently not offering help. You are cheerleading for your particular CMS. Reality check: will you still be ready to help if we don't standartize on your particular Nuke clone? Are you actually aware of the website requirements?
>> >> threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really welcome. Who is >> in charge, what is the plan, and how can I (realistically) help? > > > You are currently not offering help. You are cheerleading for your > particular CMS. Reality check: will you still be ready to help if we > don't standartize on your particular Nuke clone? Are you actually > aware of the website requirements? Alexey your being rude and innacurate. Mitch is currently offering to help. He just doesn't seem to agree with your approach. BTW Mambo is not a Nuke clone. That would be like saying Bricolage is a Nuke clone. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
> Why in the > world would someone want to build their own when there are hundreds, > HUNDREDS of portal tooklits and CMS to choose from? To an experienced > developer this is like slowly removing your fingernails with a dull > razor that was just dipped in fresh lemon juice. Yeah I understand what you mean. Im pretty thinking the same. But dont forget two things: a) build its own CMS is really a nice challenge, but is only interesting for learning purposes. One may respond to this viewing and understanding Drupal's source code or SPIP one's as same effect... well its not just the same b) NIH Syndrom : Not Invented Here. This is the human factor! :) > Second, it seems there are a couple people that insist that everything > is going fine, and that (more or less) everything must be done their > way(TM). There are other people that are convinced that nothing is > getting done, and appear so desperate that they will take anything > that they can get. The disparity to me (a relative outsider) > indicates that whatever effort I put into this is at risk of either > being duplicated or dropped altogether before ever seeing daylight. As *much* open source and free software projects are! The parallel in science is called the theory of evolution from darwin... Having many projects doing the same makes the best one survive. As an example, there are other free RDBMS out there: some will die for sure, one surely because it is too complicated to participate in because there are too many languages one may know to contribute. Another one doesnt accept anyone to participate... others are getting closed source... So What? That's life. > I joined the Mambo CMS team beause I realized it was an > interesting-but-pointless exercise creating my own CMS, but mainly to > also wire in support for Postgres ;-) Drupal, and others could also > fit the bill. I just can't see that the website for a database is so > special that it requires a ground-up approach of cobbled-together > libraries and proprietary code. Proprietary code? Where? > Third, the 'web presence' of the Postgres community as a whole is a > mess. Gborg, pgfoundry, www, advocacy, how many other sites are > there? And in what state? Sheesh, this is as bad as python. (slaps > forehead) Agreed. I also participated in the mess, creating www.PostgreSQLFr.org, the french dark side of the force. You introduce a real interesting idea, maybe of a unique site, lets say www.PostgreSQL.org, where everything could be put together? This would be great for anyone finding the information he(she) looks for. > My experience with Mambo is that you can really only have one > 'official website' (and tightly link that to the forums), and only one > 'dev site' (which for us is mamboforge.net). Then there is no > confusion, no duplication of effort, and a stronger web identity for > Postgres. Yep. You also put "every egg in the same bag" (french proverb). So what if one sites goes down?.. May be mirror yes, like samba.org does... I agree with you when you say "no duplication of effort", because in our experience, setting up our Drupal wasnt that easy, and he have it running fine just for some weeks... I wonder if, finaly, having a "container" for the french community around PG would have been sufficient or not.. So this "supa postgresql www site" has to be able to satisfy every need one may have.. > We just had someone submit a graphical layout proposal for the new > site (which I considered brilliant), hoping to help. They were > immediately told 'thanks, but no thanks'. ? Then all the > compliments started coming in, and I saw many people agree that this > was a great design - clean, professional, aesthetic. But there were a > couple people that said it won't work - and also explained the rather > non-standard requirements that they have, and why they didn't like it. > It just doesn't make sense to me. You're a bit rude. If one person here has "non-standard requirements", you can be sure hundreds, maybe thousand of potential www.PostgreSQL.org visitor have just the same. > I would love to help out, but after a couple weeks of reading the > threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really welcome. Who is > in charge, what is the plan, and how can I (realistically) help? Yes, a bit of organization, lets say projet driven method, could be good here. But, afaik, this is only a free talk at the moment :) Cheers, -- Jean-Paul ARGUDO Site perso : http://www.argudo.org PostgreSQL : http://www.postgresqlfr.org l'APRIL : http://www.april.org
Hi, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>> threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really welcome. Who is >>> in charge, what is the plan, and how can I (realistically) help? >> >> You are currently not offering help. You are cheerleading for your >> particular CMS. Reality check: will you still be ready to help if we >> don't standartize on your particular Nuke clone? Are you actually >> aware of the website requirements? > > > Alexey your being rude and innacurate. Definitely. Just like Mitch was in his mail. > Mitch is currently offering to > help. He just doesn't seem to agree with your approach. > BTW Mambo is not a Nuke clone. That would be like saying Bricolage is a > Nuke clone. BTW looking at Mambo's site it has only MySQL in its requirements. Will we at last honestly say that PostgreSQL in unsuitable for web and install the most popular open source database to run postgresql.org?
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 09:37:05PM +0400, Alexey Borzov wrote: > >Alexey your being rude and innacurate. > > Definitely. Just like Mitch was in his mail. It's surprising to me, as an outsider to the web-developing camp, to see that the guy in charge of Postgres' www has the same attitude towards the rest of the people that the previous web developer had (Vince V.) He acts like other people is constantly attacking him and trying to take something out of his control, which is obviously not true (which I, as a side observer, can tell). I wonder how would the Postgres code be if the core developers acted the same. What would happen if Jan or Chris or whoever felt attacked each time Tom corrected a bug in their code? -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>) Syntax error: function hell() needs an argument. Please choose what hell you want to involve.
On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 21:37 +0400, Alexey Borzov wrote: > > Alexey your being rude and innacurate. > > Definitely. Just like Mitch was in his mail. > "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Gandhi -- /*************************************** * Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek * PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com * Portland, OR | robby@planetargon.com * 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com * PHP/PostgreSQL Hosting & Development * --- Now supporting PHP5 and PHP4 --- ****************************************/
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Re: [pgsql-www] PostgreSQL.org Design Proposal
From
"Vishal Kashyap @ [Sai Hertz And Control Systems]"
Date:
Hi ,
> > >Alexey your being rude and innacurate.
> >
> > Definitely. Just like Mitch was in his mail.
Hey, Alexy you are known for all this very well you got entry to the
www group the same way and it helped us a lot (and it does not mean
you carry it on) you have came with a very good design which is just
to be implemented. Nice job done kindly carry on with your good work
and do'nt get distracted. on the same time please also consider what
others like Mitch want to say.
Above all suggestions givers please understand that we / alexy cannot
go to point Zero and start again with a new design what you can do is
check out the source of pgweb make some changes and propose the
patch.
>
> It's surprising to me, as an outsider to the web-developing camp, to see
> that the guy in charge of Postgres' www has the same attitude towards
> the rest of the people that the previous web developer had (Vince V.) He
> acts like other people is constantly attacking him and trying to take
> something out of his control, which is obviously not true (which I, as a
> side observer, can tell).
This is one aspect and it may be true from your perspective but on
other hand in absence of information about what is going on for
web-site improvement etc. people may send suggestions and be treated
the same way. If later is the case then what are mailing list archives
for ?
So the best way is search prioritize generate patch and submit for
review then you would see how they are treated ;-)
> Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
> Syntax error: function hell() needs an argument.
> Please choose what hell you want to involve.
How about
blamegame=# select hell('Alvaro Herrera');
Syntax Error : Please send a web page suggestion.
--
With Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.
> I wonder how would the Postgres code be if the core developers acted the > same. What would happen if Jan or Chris or whoever felt attacked each > time Tom corrected a bug in their code? Well considering how many times Tom has corrected me, I learned not to take it personally a LONG time ago :) Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP. Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
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Hi, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >>Definitely. Just like Mitch was in his mail. > > It's surprising to me, as an outsider to the web-developing camp, to see > that the guy in charge of Postgres' www has the same attitude towards > the rest of the people that the previous web developer had (Vince V.) He > acts like other people is constantly attacking him and trying to take > something out of his control, which is obviously not true (which I, as a > side observer, can tell). There is of course no attacking and taking anything out of my control (what control?) but just a problem of lack of communication. I hit the same problem myself when I got involved in all this website stuff. More on this later in a separate email and please excuse me for making you (I mean all of you) once again read my sarcastic comments.
Folks, > More on this later in a separate email and please excuse me for making you > (I mean all of you) once again read my sarcastic comments. One of the joys of working with OSS is the chance to work with people of very different cultural backgrounds than yourself. This means, though, that: a) each person needs to re-read their own e-mail and see if it could be considered offensive, and b) each person needs to NOT assume that words were meant in a hostile way and take offense, but to give posters the benefit of the doubt. This is not just about Alexey; there are plenty of other people on our lists who have very different attitudes about acceptable phrasing. We didn't grow up in the same countries, social classes, schools or families, so people have to relax a bit and assume goodwill no matter what the words look like. When I was on OOo, we had a Linux activist from the Bronx join the group. As you Americans can probably imagine, he quickly offended pretty much all of our British and Asian participants. For anyone who doesn't know, the Bronx is a place where "Hey, asshole!" is considered a friendly greeting -- so he actually told a couple of people "Don't be a dickhead," which was local slang for "you made an error" but you can imagine that a volunteer from Vancouver didn't read it like that. It's a funny story now but I had to send a *lot* of private e-mails to keep from losing community members. -- --Josh Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco