Re: Code of Conduct plan - Mailing list pgsql-general

On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:

>> My comments:
>>
>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of 
>> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>>
>> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project 
>> into disrepute, ..."
>> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen 
>> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be 
>> handled where they occur not here.

This is good point. There are those who would think that one has 
performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar 
sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on 
the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.

It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that 
committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo 
chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.

>>
>> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered 
>> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such 
>> conduct. "

>> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people 
>> these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to 
>> have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed 
>> behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.

"considered offensive by fellow members"

Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:

> I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to 
> someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at that 
> particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their 
> knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied 
> -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" 
> could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever 

"snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. 
Which is correct?

> I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university that 
> doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of 
> the history of slavery.

The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the 
terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.

> 
> I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my 
> first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a 
> technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they 
> implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if 
> I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object!

Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of 
acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). 
Knowing your audience is important.

> Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government 
> Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that are very 
> Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they found the bonds 
> were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. 
> The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the 
> thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most 
> Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive.

Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is 
part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly 
frowned upon.

> Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!
> 

Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say 
it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems 
but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational.

JD


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