Re: Code of Conduct plan - Mailing list pgsql-general

On 04/06/18 07:32, Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a
>> Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which
>> the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee
>> to draft a CoC [1].  That process has taken far longer than expected,
>> but the committee has not been idle.  They worked through many comments
>> and many drafts to produce a version that seems acceptable in the view
>> of the core team.  This final(?) draft can be found at
>>
>> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>>
>> We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
>> Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
>> If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
>> coc@postgresql.org.
>>
>> The initial membership of the CoC committee will be announced 
>> separately,
>> but shortly.
>>
>> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a 
>> result
>> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
>> July 1 2018.
>
> My comments:
>
> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of 
> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>
> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project 
> into disrepute, ..."
> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen 
> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be 
> handled where they occur not here.
>
> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered 
> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such 
> conduct. "
> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people 
> these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to 
> have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed 
> behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.
I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to 
someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at that 
particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their 
knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied 
-- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" 
could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever 
I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university that 
doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of 
the history of slavery.

I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my 
first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a 
technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they 
implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if 
I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object!

There are a lot of words and phrases that are okay in some cultures, but 
may be offensive in others -- even within the ame country.

Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government 
Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that are very 
Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they found the bonds 
were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene.  
The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the 
thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most 
Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive.

You should look at the hoohaa over what Linus Torvalds says.  I've read 
several of his posts and seen videos were he has been less than polite.  
But I know when he is coming from.  If Linus was rude to me, I would be 
chuffed, because than I'd know I was good enough for him to reply to me, 
but that either I could have done better or that Linus was wrong.  For 
example see the email exchange with the infamous Sarah Sharp 
https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/15/407.  At the 2015 Australian Linux 
Conference, I watched as Sarah harangued Linus for over twenty minutes, 
Linus kept calm and polite throughout.

So common words and phrases could be offensive to some people. Sometimes 
people just need to let of stream.

You could end up with people being excessively polite to show their 
displeasure.  Come across the expression "icely polite" -- it was a way 
of showing contempt while denying the victim any excuse for a deadly 
duel!  Which would lead to the issue that people wouldn't always know if 
the politeness was real, or if it was intended to show disdain.

Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!


Cheers,
Gavin

>
>>
>>             regards, tom lane
>>
>> [1] https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/56A8516B.8000105@agliodbs.com
>>
>>
>
>