Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training - Mailing list pgsql-general

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Although you certainly have a point that a lot of companies rely on
"certification" in the one or other way, you'd have to admit that probably
80% of "certified" people have no clue what they are talking about.
I met so many certified people where you could give them a problem and they
have no idea of how to solve it.
IMHO a certification is a fabulous way to generate money flow for the company
offering the certification, it's not a way to proof skills. What most
certifications lack is problem solving. The moment you can just learn it and
take the test the certification is complete nonsense.
Microsoft started this "certification" thing just to generate more income -
there are so many MSCE's that normally a spreading virus shouldn't spread -
since, you guessed it, a decent administrator would have applied patches,
checked for threads, have a decent firewall etc. etc.
I'm not completely against certification, however it should be real education
in the first place. There are only few certifications out there that really
test skills and not book knowledge.
As it comes to postgresql - it's a pretty usual rdbms. No fundamentally big
difference to oracle and similar systems. If you can handle oracle you
shouldn't have a problem with postgresql. The issues you'll certainly
encounter are usually easy to figure out via the community or the techdocs.

Sure I can't change the system, but companies should start to change their way
of operating. Most certifications (and even academic degrees) simply proof
that you could acquire a certain amount of theoretical knowledge in a certain
amount of time. It doesn't proof that you can actually apply that knowledge
to real world situations. And if you look around in companies - large or
small - you see the same amount of bad decisions over and over again.

- From that experience I supprot the idea of making postgresql more public, but
don't start a certification that basically asks for the contents of the 15
year old SQL book catching dust on some shelf.
I agree that more and better documentation in a more "business" adequate way
should be published.

Just to do a little "flame" thing: If you learn MySQL you'll get about 10% of
what postgresql can do - better head for a oracle certification.


On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:09 pm, Bret Busby wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800
> > From: Bryan Encina <bryan.encina@valleypres.org>
> > To: 'Bruce Momjian' <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
> > Cc: pgsql-novice@postgresql.org
> > Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
> >
> > > I think that is about the author of the web site, and is
> > > being removed.
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
> >
> > Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed
> > wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50%
> > being strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard
> > certification/training?
> >
> > Bryan
>
> I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone,
> off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list,
> about the "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days" book, which is
> advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist.
>
> The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of
> the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below,
> the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn
> MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured
> book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to
> learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way.
>
> A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred
> about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL
> certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the
> discussion, by searching, using google, for "PostgreSQL certification".
>
> As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the
> knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to
> do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to
> obtain the "Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days" book, which does exist,
> work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4
> Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on
> passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to
> PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using
> PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus,
> obtaining open source database development skills and certification with
> MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills.
>
> It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting
> PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related
> certification.
>
> From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL
> standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than major commercial DBMS's,
> but PostgreSQL apparently lacks formal assessment and certification of
> skills in the same way that MySQL has, thus making training and
> certification for PostgreSQL, lacking in comparison.
>
> The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications,
> like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I
> understand, similarly, internationally recognised.
>
> Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL
> training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in
> the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is
> that practitioners appear to be hack-programmers (I do not mean that in
> a derogatory way, but, in the sense of being lacking in formal
> training and certification in PostgreSQL skills), in the absence of
> formalised training and certification. I understand that, as with
> PostgreSQL, in the Perl community, resistance to any form of skills
> certification, exists. This is found by similarly searching on "Perl
> certification". Thus, is the existence of the title, as apparently used
> by many Perl programmers; JAPH - Just Another Perl Hacker. That too, has
> been mentioned, in the discussions about the prospect of Perl
> certification
>
> I am not intending to troll, or to enter into any brand flame war with
> this (and I hope that this message is not misconstrued as flaming or
> trolling, but, rather, taken as the constructive criticism as it is
> intended to be); however, I think that the lack of training and
> certification facilities such as exist for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, is a
> bit disappointing, and leaves the path that I intend to take, as the
> only option available, to get into development using PostgreSQL.
>
> I personally, believe, and, suggest, that formalised, structured,
> training, and, international assessment and certification, as exists and
> as is supposed to be being developed for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, would go
> a long way to increased public acceptance of PostgreSQL, and, to the
> maturity of PostgreSQL, and would thus lead to increased public use of
> PostgreSQL. (And, a good Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book,
> would be good, too :) . )
>
> My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people,
> and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which
> she develops.
>
> However, when the issue of open source software development, such as in
> PostgreSQL, arises, her employer company apparently steers away from it,
> instead, steering toward software development, using software tools that
> are internationally recognised and in which certification is available,
> and, I believe that her employer company regards things like PostgreSQL,
> as the dark and murky unknown, especially in the absence of any
> recognised formal training and certification.
>
> It is one thing to say that PostgreSQL is big and powerful, and that it
> is (or, as I believe, is) the most ANSI-SQL standards-compliant DBMS,
> and that it is used for such major projects as (as I believe) the .org
> registry, but, in the absence of recognition of PostgreSQL as being
> backed by formal training and certification, it is difficult to obtain
> acceptance of PostgreSQL.
>
> But, the issue of formal and structured training and certification in
> PostgreSQL, is something to be decided by the PostgreSQL guru's, I
> believe, and, until they implement these things, we are left in the
> dark, and, required to do things such as travel the path that I have
> mentioned, via MySQL. And, it is always possible, that, in
> following such a path, and having obtained MySQL certification, a person
> may stay with MySQL, thus, the path of formalised training and
> certification, taking potential software developers, and, thence,
> potential customers, to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL.
>
> Thus, whilst, if I chose that path, it might not be any great loss, if
> others followed that path, and, went to MySQL instead of PostgreSQL, due
> to the lack of formalised training and certification of PostgreSQL
> skills, it would be a loss of potential usage and acceptance, by
> PostgreSQL, kind of like PostgreSQL shooting itself in its feet.

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