Thread: Poor Yum User Download Experience
As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the experience to be very poor. From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository". That points to a moved link that tells you to go to: https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1. Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me. Then, once there, you see: Letter PPackages beginning with letter "P". * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as 9.0.X. Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing that was confusing. Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, which points to: https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download which shows: 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and sloppiness that makes the community look bad. Contrast this with Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand: http://yum.pgrpms.org/ Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one we link to now? -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
Bruce Momjian wrote: > Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, > which points to: > > https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download > > which shows: > > 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. > > Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. Oh, another problem. When you click on 8.4 above, you see: [DIR] Parent Directory -[DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 -[ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-201011:51 4.1K[ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K[ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K[DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 -[DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - which doesn't make much sense to me, and there is no CentOS directory, but the Centos noarch.rpm appears in the Redhat subdirectory too. I don't know enough about RPMs to know if the subdirectory contents make any sense. And maybe all this is fine. The bottom line is I consider this RPM/Yum site to be an embarassment. And the number of problems is so great that there is obviously a systematic disregard for the user experience, which suggests that even if all the problems I listed are fixed, new problems will regularly resurface. This suggests we should be looking elsewhere for RPM/Yum hosting. Now, of course, if it is just me who thinks that, then I will just forget about it. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
> [DIR] Parent Directory - > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 - > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 - > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - > > which doesn't make much sense to me, and there is no CentOS directory, > but the Centos noarch.rpm appears in the Redhat subdirectory too. I > don't know enough about RPMs to know if the subdirectory contents make > any sense. And maybe all this is fine. Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there. However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using the Yum repo. In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying; it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual contents: http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/ -- -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://www.pgexperts.com
On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > > [DIR] Parent Directory - > > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 - > > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K > > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K > > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K > > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 - > > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - > > > Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to > get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there. > > However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using > the Yum repo. > > In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying; > it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual > contents: > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/ That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are correct the proper interface is Yum, not the web. You really should never see yum.pgsqlrpms.org. You should see https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore or https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 17:24, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: >> > [DIR] Parent Directory - >> > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 - >> > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K >> > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K >> > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K >> > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 - >> > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - >> > > >> Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to >> get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there. >> >> However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using >> the Yum repo. >> >> In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying; >> it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual >> contents: >> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/ > > That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are > correct the proper interface is Yum, not the web. > > You really should never see yum.pgsqlrpms.org. You should see Can we change that? ;) it would be much nicer if it said yum.pgsqlrpms.org... -- Magnus HaganderMe: http://www.hagander.net/Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > [DIR] Parent Directory - > > > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 - > > > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K > > > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K > > > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K > > > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 - > > > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - > > > > > > Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to > > get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there. > > > > However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using > > the Yum repo. > > > > In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying; > > it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual > > contents: > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/ > > That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are Yes, I clicked on direct downloads, and I assume that is what someone would want if they wanted the RPMs directly, and not via Yum, which seems reasonable. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > > [DIR] Parent Directory - > > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 - > > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K > > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K > > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K > > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 - > > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 - > > > Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to > get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there. > > However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using > the Yum repo. > > In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying; > it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual > contents: > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/ That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are correct the proper interface is Yum, not the web. You really should never see yum.pgsqlrpms.org. You should see https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore or https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
FYI, all the problems I reported below still exist. However, I am wondering how much I, as a community member, am supposed to care about user download experience that is not controlled by the community, so I am going to wait for actual download users to complain. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Momjian wrote: > As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking > at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the > experience to be very poor. > > >From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I > clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository". > > That points to a moved link that tells you to go to: > > https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki > > On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1. > Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me. > > Then, once there, you see: > > Letter P > > Packages beginning with letter "P". > > * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration > * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration > * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration > > What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as > 9.0.X. > > Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since > yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing > that was confusing. > > Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, > which points to: > > https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download > > which shows: > > 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. > > Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. > > The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and > sloppiness that makes the community look bad. Contrast this with > Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand: > > http://yum.pgrpms.org/ > > Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one > we link to now? > > -- > Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us > EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com > > + None of us is going to be here forever. + > > -- > Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual users. //Magnus On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 04:15, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote: > > FYI, all the problems I reported below still exist. However, I am > wondering how much I, as a community member, am supposed to care about > user download experience that is not controlled by the community, so I > am going to wait for actual download users to complain. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bruce Momjian wrote: >> As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking >> at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the >> experience to be very poor. >> >> >From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I >> clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository". >> >> That points to a moved link that tells you to go to: >> >> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki >> >> On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1. >> Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me. >> >> Then, once there, you see: >> >> Letter P >> >> Packages beginning with letter "P". >> >> * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration >> * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration >> * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration >> >> What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as >> 9.0.X. >> >> Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since >> yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing >> that was confusing. >> >> Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, >> which points to: >> >> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download >> >> which shows: >> >> 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. >> >> Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. >> >> The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and >> sloppiness that makes the community look bad. Contrast this with >> Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand: >> >> http://yum.pgrpms.org/ >> >> Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one >> we link to now? >> >> -- >> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us >> EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com >> >> + None of us is going to be here forever. + >> >> -- >> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org) >> To make changes to your subscription: >> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www > > -- > Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us > EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com >
Magnus Hagander wrote: > I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed > those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just > confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual > users. OK, so that means Command Prompt is not willing to correct problem reports in a reasonable amount of time. I guess we, as a community, either have to accept that or find another RPM/YUM supplier. We don't attribute these packages to Command Prompt like we do for other items on that page: http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux Should we do that, and would that help us avoid receiving problem reports ourselves? It is also confusing that that section mixes links to Command Prompt and Devrim packages. Please tell me our other download sections are also not such a huge mess. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 10:42 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Magnus Hagander wrote: > > I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed > > those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just > > confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual > > users. > > OK, so that means Command Prompt is not willing to correct problem > reports in a reasonable amount of time. I guess we, as a community, > either have to accept that or find another RPM/YUM supplier. > Bruce if would mind keeping a grain of truth in what is actually going on I would appreciate it. CMD has gone to great lengths, extreme lengths to address every single concern that has come across the table on the pgsqlrpms site. The main problem here is you are ignorant of how RPM/YUM works. Which is why you say things like, "What kind of letter is P". When we get reports, we address them, directly. If you have specific and constructive feedback to provide, that can create a better user experience, I am all ears. When Dave or Magnus have had specific illustration of how we can make it better we have made strives to do so. I admit I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who don't understand how to install an RPM and type yum install. If you can give us some bullet points where you feel it would be more useful for the user, I would be happy to adjust the wiki page so its easier for users. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Bruce if would mind keeping a grain of truth in what is actually going > on I would appreciate it. CMD has gone to great lengths, extreme lengths > to address every single concern that has come across the table on the > pgsqlrpms site. > > The main problem here is you are ignorant of how RPM/YUM works. Which is > why you say things like, "What kind of letter is P". Amazing you remember that item, but none of the other more substantive items I mentioned in the thread that started here (and which you were CC'ed on): http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2010-06/msg00040.php Things like broken links, an RPM page labeled 9.0 when it was for all PG versions, and 8.4 labeled as "New release. Test before you upgrade". How much more specific do you want? Care to respond to _any_ of those other issues? So, let's look at the process: o I send an email stating serious problems and CC youo Nothing changeso I ask againo You complain that I am concernedabout the letter "P"o I have to restate all my complaints and justify myself I can only conclude that you don't really want to hear any of the valid concerns I have, which is why I said the community either has to accept that Command Prompt isn't interested in improving things in a timely manner, or we have to look for another RPM supplier. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2010-06/msg00040.php > > Things like broken links, an RPM page labeled 9.0 when it was for all PG > versions, and 8.4 labeled as "New release. Test before you upgrade". > How much more specific do you want? Care to respond to _any_ of those > other issues? Sure, I will respond in kind to each that you provide, answers provided inline. Bruce stated: Then, once there, you see: Letter P Packages beginning with letter "P". * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as 9.0.X. JD: This is how YUM does it. I told you this. Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, which points to: https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download which shows: 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. JD: Which is completely accurate. 8.4 is the new release and you should test before you upgrade. JD: Anything else you would like to bring up based on your "poor experience"? JD Disclaimer: I just made some changes to the wiki pages to reflect the EOL status of 7.4/8.0/8.1. I also made a separate page for configuring Yum since it appears part of the complaints is that it isn't newbie friendly enough. I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text. Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. > > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text. > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis. I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was in-line and I happened to see it. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. > > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of > > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better > > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. > > > > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text. > > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis. > > I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was > in-line and I happened to see it. Your basic approach is to try to mention the most stupid item I found and try to minimize the problems. I don't have time to drag your nose multiple times into every little problem you have, and you obviously don't care to objectively review my complaints and make improvements, hence my conclusions. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
Bruce, I have addressed your complaints. I adjusted the pages as my disclaimer stated. Thank you for your feedback. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: >> > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. >> > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of >> > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better >> > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. >> > >> > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text. >> > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis. >> >> I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was >> in-line and I happened to see it. > > Your basic approach is to try to mention the most stupid item I found > and try to minimize the problems. I don't have time to drag your nose > multiple times into every little problem you have, and you obviously > don't care to objectively review my complaints and make improvements, > hence my conclusions. This discussion seems to contain more heat than light. Let me state, first of all, and categorically, that I really don't care whether we point people to CommandPrompt's RPMs, Devrim's RPMs, or some other set of RPMs. Having said that, I do think there are a couple of real problems here. 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org. The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless click-through manual redirects). 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) links to https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum, while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place. 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL version, but both in fact go to http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. Only after clicking into one of these packages do you realize that older versions are also available. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise Postgres Company
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of > those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org. > The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a > completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to > another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There > should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless > click-through manual redirects). This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see the one click installer for example) > > 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is > where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you directly to the project page now. > links to > https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum, > while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the > information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place. I am not sure where you see that. Configure_Yum has no external links to a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception. > > 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you > can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL > version, but both in fact go to Again, not sure where you see two (please provide more info) > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which > claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. What? Oh I see this: pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that. > Only after clicking into one > of these packages do you realize that older versions are also > available. That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on the Configure_Yum page. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > > > 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of > > those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org. > > The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a > > completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to > > another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There > > should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless > > click-through manual redirects). > > This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see > the one click installer for example) > > > > > 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is > > where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) > > This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you > directly to the project page now. Well, it does that now, but it didn't do that 8 hours ago when I was re-reporing this problem. > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which > > claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. > > What? Oh I see this: > > pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository > > I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that. Again, something I reported weeks ago. > > Only after clicking into one > > of these packages do you realize that older versions are also > > available. > > That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on > the Configure_Yum page. A link that says 9.0.X makes you think the link is only for 9.0 stuff. How could you intepret it any other way? Again, this just points out that you have to jump through 10 hoops to prove there is something that can be improved about the Command Prompt RPM site --- a major waste of time, and a good reason to look for alternatives. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 17:38 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: Bruce you and I are obviously having a communication disconnect. I very simply understood what Robert said. Sorry we are having a hard time. You can stop being difficult now. Robert, if you could provide the specific info I requested that would be great. Thanks. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > >> 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of >> those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org. >> The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a >> completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to >> another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There >> should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless >> click-through manual redirects). > > This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see > the one click installer for example) Uhm, no it isn't. I'm not talking about the fact that you have CommandPrompt branding on your pages; I'm talking about the fact that you have multiple links that go to pages with different branding. On this page: http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux For the one-click installers, the only link is to http://www.enterprisedb.com/products/pgdownload.do For the RPMs, there are links to: http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/ http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php The first of these links has a different look and feel than the other two. >> 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is >> where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) > > This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you > directly to the project page now. Looks better. >> links to >> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum, >> while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at >> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the >> information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place. > > I am not sure where you see that. Configure_Yum has no external links to > a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception. You need to back up a step and look at the download page on postgresql.org. That is where the link to howtoyum.php is located. >> 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you >> can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL >> version, but both in fact go to > > Again, not sure where you see two (please provide more info) Again, there's one on http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux pointing to http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php and one on https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki going to https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum >> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which >> claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. > > What? Oh I see this: > > pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository > > I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that. That would definitely be less confusing. Also, the page that points you there should say - first choose your architecture - then you'll get another page where you can pick your PG version. >> Only after clicking into one >> of these packages do you realize that older versions are also >> available. > > That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on > the Configure_Yum page. Well, it appears to be true, because of the 9.0.X bit. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise Postgres Company
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/ > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php > > The first of these links has a different look and feel than the other two. AHA! I thought you were talking on pgsqlrpms. O.k. I can get the download page updated. So that all info goes to the correct place. > a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception. > You need to back up a step and look at the download page on > postgresql.org. That is where the link to howtoyum.php is located. > Yeah caught that above. Seems much of the confusion now lies in an outdated .org download page (sans the 9.0.x bit). I will get that fixed. > > That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on > > the Configure_Yum page. > > Well, it appears to be true, because of the 9.0.X bit. > Right I have got a ticket open to fix that 9.0.x bit. Should be fixed by Monday. Thanks, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > For the RPMs, there are links to: > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/ > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php > I have removed the references to these links. The new references point to https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki and /pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum respectively. You can see the changes here: http://jd.webdev.postgresql.org/download/linux They should show up in the next couple of hours. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 10:42 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Magnus Hagander wrote: > > I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed > > those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just > > confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual > > users. > > OK, so that means Command Prompt is not willing to correct problem > reports in a reasonable amount of time. I guess we, as a community, > either have to accept that or find another RPM/YUM supplier. > Bruce if would mind keeping a grain of truth in what is actually going on I would appreciate it. CMD has gone to great lengths, extreme lengths to address every single concern that has come across the table on the pgsqlrpms site. The main problem here is you are ignorant of how RPM/YUM works. Which is why you say things like, "What kind of letter is P". When we get reports, we address them, directly. If you have specific and constructive feedback to provide, that can create a better user experience, I am all ears. When Dave or Magnus have had specific illustration of how we can make it better we have made strives to do so. I admit I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who don't understand how to install an RPM and type yum install. If you can give us some bullet points where you feel it would be more useful for the user, I would be happy to adjust the wiki page so its easier for users. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2010-06/msg00040.php > > Things like broken links, an RPM page labeled 9.0 when it was for all PG > versions, and 8.4 labeled as "New release. Test before you upgrade". > How much more specific do you want? Care to respond to _any_ of those > other issues? Sure, I will respond in kind to each that you provide, answers provided inline. Bruce stated: Then, once there, you see: Letter PPackages beginning with letter "P". * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as 9.0.X. JD: This is how YUM does it. I told you this. Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section, which points to: https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download which shows: 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade. Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now. JD: Which is completely accurate. 8.4 is the new release and you should test before you upgrade. JD: Anything else you would like to bring up based on your "poor experience"? JD Disclaimer: I just made some changes to the wiki pages to reflect the EOL status of 7.4/8.0/8.1. I also made a separate page for configuring Yum since it appears part of the complaints is that it isn't newbie friendly enough. I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar. > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me. > > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text. > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis. I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was in-line and I happened to see it. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Bruce, I have addressed your complaints. I adjusted the pages as my disclaimer stated. Thank you for your feedback. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of > those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org. > The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a > completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to > another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There > should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless > click-through manual redirects). This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see the one click installer for example) > > 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is > where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you directly to the project page now. > links to > https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum, > while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the > information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place. I am not sure where you see that. Configure_Yum has no external links to a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception. > > 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you > can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL > version, but both in fact go to Again, not sure where you see two (please provide more info) > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which > claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. What? Oh I see this: pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that. > Only after clicking into one > of these packages do you realize that older versions are also > available. That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on the Configure_Yum page. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 17:38 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: Bruce you and I are obviously having a communication disconnect. I very simply understood what Robert said. Sorry we are having a hard time. You can stop being difficult now. Robert, if you could provide the specific info I requested that would be great. Thanks. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/ > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php > > The first of these links has a different look and feel than the other two. AHA! I thought you were talking on pgsqlrpms. O.k. I can get the download page updated. So that all info goes to the correct place. > a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception. > You need to back up a step and look at the download page on > postgresql.org. That is where the link to howtoyum.php is located. > Yeah caught that above. Seems much of the confusion now lies in an outdated .org download page (sans the 9.0.x bit). I will get that fixed. > > That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on > > the Configure_Yum page. > > Well, it appears to be true, because of the 9.0.X bit. > Right I have got a ticket open to fix that 9.0.x bit. Should be fixed by Monday. Thanks, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote: > For the RPMs, there are links to: > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/ > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php > I have removed the references to these links. The new references point to https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki and /pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum respectively. You can see the changes here: http://jd.webdev.postgresql.org/download/linux They should show up in the next couple of hours. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
bruce wrote: > Then, once there, you see: > > Letter P > > Packages beginning with letter "P". > > * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration > * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration > * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration > > What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as > 9.0.X. While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been fixed, the above has not been: http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 12:41 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been > fixed, the above has not been: > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html We haven't forgotten Bruce. It is on the TODO. Joshua D. Drake
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 12:41 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been > > fixed, the above has not been: > > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html > > We haven't forgotten Bruce. It is on the TODO. Thanks. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + None of us is going to be here forever. +
On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 14:03 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 12:41 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > > While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been > > > fixed, the above has not been: > > > > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html > > > > We haven't forgotten Bruce. It is on the TODO. > > Thanks. > Fixed. JD > -- > Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us > EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com > > + None of us is going to be here forever. + > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 14:03 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 12:41 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > > While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been > > > fixed, the above has not been: > > > > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html > > > > We haven't forgotten Bruce. It is on the TODO. > > Thanks. > Fixed. JD > -- > Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us > EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com > > + None of us is going to be here forever. + > -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 14:03 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 12:41 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > > > > > While I think everything else Robert Haas reported to Joshua Drake has been > > > > fixed, the above has not been: > > > > > > > > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html > > > > > > We haven't forgotten Bruce. It is on the TODO. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Fixed. Very clear now --- thanks. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. +