Thread: Re: "Stretchy" vs. Fixed-width
Hi Josh, Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) I originally designed the current fixed-width site, which at the time various people liked, however, the one complaint thatI think many of us kept hearing was that it should be variable width so ppl could utilise their screen real estate ifthey wished. Originally, Robert worked on just that update to the current site iirc. Personnally, I don't care which way it goes, but based on feedback I've heard over the last couple of years, stretchy isdefinately preferred by others. /D -----Original Message----- From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org on behalf of Josh Berkus Sent: Sat 11/20/2004 8:16 PM To: pgsql-www@postgresql.org Subject: [pgsql-www] "Stretchy" vs. Fixed-width Robert, Dave: Hey, I wanted to settle -- or at least discuss -- the "stretchy" issue on website designs. Aside from Omar's design, I think this is a useful issue to settle for a draft website spec, and *having* browsed the archives, I don't feel that it was ever discussed fully. Tom, Robert and Dave have expressed that they *like* variable-width in the past, but I cannot find any discussion on the WWW list that lays out why we would, as a group, find it important to choose variable over fixed width. So, some comparisons: If you look at corporate websites, they tend to go for fixed-width: www.ibm.com www.hp.com www.redhat.com www.ca.com www.sun.com http://www.novell.com/linux/suse/index.html www.vmware.com www.apple.com www.harpercollins.com ... in fact, I've been trying this morning to find a large tech software or hardware manufacturer web site that uses variable-width, and cannot. The sites that go for variable width seem to be: (a) News sites www.the451.com www.slashdot.org www.theregister.co.uk ... but not, interestingly, www.cnn.com (b) Open Source projects/companies www.mozilla.org www.mysql.com http://www.jboss.org/products/index www.kde.org www.debian.org ... actually, it's interesting how the web world is split; the big proprietary software/hardware companies seem to almost universally opt for fixed-width, and those centered around OSS projects are pretty much universally variable-width. Partly the OSS projects are explainable because many (if not most) of them use community website packages which tend to be universally variable-width. What this means, I don't know. Thoughts? What it seems to show me is that either format strategy is "valid" and "contemporary" and that our decision should be based on practical and aesthetic concerns, and not on what's "too 90's". So, do people have reasons why one is better than the other? -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: > Hi Josh, > > Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) 'k, you do realize that mentioning microsoft *really* doesn't work in "variable-widths" favor, eh? :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: > >> Hi Josh, >> >> Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) > > > 'k, you do realize that mentioning microsoft *really* doesn't work in > "variable-widths" favor, eh? :) Although I appreciate the humor, Microsoft is actually a good example. Yes they are considered by many as "the Enemy". However they are widely respected even amongst people who hate them as marketing genuises. A website although primarily a tool, it is primarily a marketing tool. Something to think about :) Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services > (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: > 7615664 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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Actually, looking at the Microsoft website Dave pointed to, it looks fixed-width to me ... and left justified instead of centered ... I wish doing a 'view source' was a bit easier to read, but from the way their javascript is defined at the top, it looks to be fixed to 855? <body onLoad="initPopup()" onUnload="exitPopup()"> <script type="text/javascript"> var isW;isW=(document&&document.body.clientWidth&&document.body.clientWidth>=895&&document.getElementById); </script> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: >> >>> Hi Josh, >>> >>> Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) >> >> >> 'k, you do realize that mentioning microsoft *really* doesn't work in >> "variable-widths" favor, eh? :) > > Although I appreciate the humor, Microsoft is actually a good example. Yes > they are considered by > many as "the Enemy". However they are widely respected even amongst people > who hate them as marketing genuises. > A website although primarily a tool, it is primarily a marketing tool. > > Something to think about :) > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > > >> >> >> ---- >> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) >> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > > > -- > Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC > Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. > +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com > PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL > > ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Note that if you go to a sub page, their "center content" appear to be fixed-width, while their top/bottom banner appears to be variable-width ... *really* looks odd ... On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Actually, looking at the Microsoft website Dave pointed to, it looks > fixed-width to me ... and left justified instead of centered ... I wish doing > a 'view source' was a bit easier to read, but from the way their javascript > is defined at the top, it looks to be fixed to 855? > > <body onLoad="initPopup()" onUnload="exitPopup()"> > <script type="text/javascript"> > var > isW;isW=(document&&document.body.clientWidth&&document.body.clientWidth>=895&&document.getElementById); > </script> > > > > > > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Josh, >>>> >>>> Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) >>> >>> >>> 'k, you do realize that mentioning microsoft *really* doesn't work in >>> "variable-widths" favor, eh? :) >> >> Although I appreciate the humor, Microsoft is actually a good example. Yes >> they are considered by >> many as "the Enemy". However they are widely respected even amongst people >> who hate them as marketing genuises. >> A website although primarily a tool, it is primarily a marketing tool. >> >> Something to think about :) >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Joshua D. Drake >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services >>> (http://www.hub.org) >>> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: >>> 7615664 >>> >>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >>> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >> >> >> >> -- >> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC >> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. >> +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com >> PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL >> >> > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Actually, looking at the Microsoft website Dave pointed to, it looks > fixed-width to me ... and left justified instead of centered ... I > wish doing a 'view source' was a bit easier to read, but from the way > their javascript is defined at the top, it looks to be fixed to 855? Yes it is a fixed width site. I was just making comment to your Microsoft comment :). Also I prefer fixed width sites. A fixed width site is much easier to maintain, sets specific guidelines for you content presentation and makes you actually think about how you are going to layout the site. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > <body DEFANGED_OnLoad="initPopup()" DEFANGED_OnUnload="exitPopup()"> > <DEFANGED_script type="text/javascript"> > var > isW;isW=(document&&document.body.clientWidth&&document.body.clientWidth>=895&&document.getElementById); > > </script> > > > > > > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Josh, >>>> >>>> Add www.microsoft.com to the list of variable ones :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> 'k, you do realize that mentioning microsoft *really* doesn't work >>> in "variable-widths" favor, eh? :) >> >> >> Although I appreciate the humor, Microsoft is actually a good >> example. Yes they are considered by >> many as "the Enemy". However they are widely respected even amongst >> people who hate them as marketing genuises. >> A website although primarily a tool, it is primarily a marketing tool. >> >> Something to think about :) >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Joshua D. Drake >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services >>> (http://www.hub.org) >>> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: >>> 7615664 >>> >>> ---------------------------(end of >>> broadcast)--------------------------- >>> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC >> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. >> +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com >> PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL >> >> > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services > (http://www.hub.org) > Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: > 7615664 -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> >> Actually, looking at the Microsoft website Dave pointed to, it looks >> fixed-width to me ... and left justified instead of centered ... I wish >> doing a 'view source' was a bit easier to read, but from the way their >> javascript is defined at the top, it looks to be fixed to 855? > > > Yes it is a fixed width site. I was just making comment to your Microsoft > comment :). Ya, it was your comment that prompted me to look at the site a bit closer :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> -----Original Message----- > From: Marc G. Fournier [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] > Sent: 21 November 2004 19:14 > To: Joshua D. Drake > Cc: Marc G. Fournier; Dave Page; Josh Berkus; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] "Stretchy" vs. Fixed-width > > > Actually, looking at the Microsoft website Dave pointed to, > it looks fixed-width to me ... and left justified instead of > centered ... I wish doing a 'view source' was a bit easier to > read, but from the way their javascript is defined at the > top, it looks to be fixed to 855? Yeah, they seem have have changed it recently. Try the 'Windows Server System' link, or http://msdn.microsoft.com to see examples of the older style. I agree with Joshua incidently (which is why I mentioned the site in the first place). Many ppl hate Microsoft, but they are undeniably good at user interface design. /D
Joshua D. Drake wrote: <snip> > A fixed width site is much easier to maintain For something that's based on opinion, shouldn't we then start looking at other qualities? For example, the above comment by Joshua "A fixed width site is much easier to maintain" seems to be accurate for one of the most important points for the web team. We don't have copious amounts of time to tweak stuff, so taking the lower-maintenance approach would be a better idea wouldn't it? Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift <snip>
Hi, > Yes it is a fixed width site. I was just making comment to your > Microsoft comment :). Also I prefer fixed width sites. A fixed width > site is much easier to maintain, sets specific guidelines for you > content presentation and makes you actually think about how you are > going to layout the site. Upon further consideration of the fixed width vs. "stretchy" issue, we have decided that there is one part of the site that would benefit greatly from a stretchy design, and that is documentation. See the example we've created: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/files/docs.html The reason that we believe that variable width is a better approach for documentation in particular is that people have different viewing preferences when referring to manuals or books online. The readability of online docs is improved if it is possible for the user to resize the text and the width of the browser window to accommodate their viewing preferences. Some may want to use all of their real estate while reading the docs, while others may only want to use 1/4 of their screen so that they can refer to the docs whilst coding at the same time. (Having said that, it's worth noting that while our example page has no *minimum* width for text, it does have a sensible maximum (IE tweaks pending) to stop it from scaling and becoming unreadable on huge screens.) However, while there are compelling reasons for docs to be variable width, we don't believe that people would be reading the rest of the site in the same way. It is most likely that somebody visiting the PostgreSQL website would be viewing it with their window maximized, and it is unlikely that they would want to refer to content outside of docs whilst performing another activity (as in the example above). Therefore, it's unlikely that someone would want to view the site in a width smaller than the minimum of 800. We don't believe there is much of a case for allowing the site (apart from docs) to expand beyond the fixed layout width of 800. As mentioned by others on this list, variable width produces unpredictable results on a carefully designed layout. We believe that being able to control the layout from a design perspective, and the ability of the user to view the site as the designer intended (the way the majority of users would want to view it anyway) are good arguments for fixed width design and why so many designers choose this option. Omar and Emily
> -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Josh Berkus > Sent: 22 November 2004 17:58 > To: Joshua D. Drake > Cc: Robert Treat; PostgreSQL www > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] "Stretchy" vs. Fixed-width > > > Fixed-Width > -- Supports more polished designs > -- More "corporate" > -- supports better visual organization of navigation > -- better for websites with many images > -- cuts down on scrolling > -- emphasizes design > > Variable-Width > -- Supports a greater variety of browser/language settings > -- More "open source" > -- better for large quantities of text content > -- emphasizes content > > Do people agree with the above points? Add the following to fixed width: - The most commonly complained-about feature of the current site. /D