Thread: Bug 1500
Hi, I have found what is causing the crash described in Bug 1500. Now I would like to fix it, but need opinions about what is the correct behaviour. The bug can be easily duplicated when formatting interval in to_char() using 'Mon' or 'Month' in the format string. select to_char(now() - '20011001'::date, 'YYYYMonDD'); (server process crash follows) What happens: 1. The formatting function used is dch_date() (src/backend/utils/adt/formatting.c) and it works on struct pg_tm. 2. The interval2tm() (src/backend/utils/adt/timestamp.c) is used to convert the interval into pg_tm struct. 2a. If the Interval parameter has month != 0, then month and year are filled in pg_tm 2b. If not -> they are set to 0 and only days, hours, minutes, seconds are filled (this is the case when the bug appears). 3. dch_date() expects the struct pg_tm to have valid 1-based month index and directly references the months/months_full arrays using (tm->month - 1) as index to get the short/full name of the month. 4. SIGSEGV in the server process This could be easily by not allowing the bad array indexing, but it raises a bigger problem: How is supposed the to_char() function to format interval datatype? What is the correct output? Should we: 1) Try to fill the missing data (years, months) using the days (but how many days are in one month? hardcode 30/31? how many days in 1 year then...) and fix the formatting function to ignore string based formatting for intervals 2) Fail the entire statement (do not support interval formatting with to_char()) Also the general to_char() Interval formatting seems broken anyway. Note that the following (and similar) works now, but the result doesn't seem to be correct: test=> select to_char(now() - '20011001'::date, 'YYYYDD');to_char ---------000112 (1 row) test=> select now() - '20011001'::date; ?column? -------------------------------1271 days 12:48:18.1216260046 (1 row) So this bug actually brings the issue of interval to_char() formatting. Opinions? Regards, Lyubomir Petrov
Lyubomir Petrov <lpetrov@sysmaster.com> writes: > I have found what is causing the crash described in Bug 1500. Now I > would like to fix it, but need opinions about what is the correct behaviour. Yeah, I just came to the same conclusion a little while ago: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2005-03/msg00908.php > Also the general to_char() Interval formatting seems broken anyway. Karel Zak has stated repeatedly that interval_to_char is fundamentally wrong and should be removed. I'm not sure it's quite as bad as that, but it does seem that a different set of formatting codes is needed for intervals as opposed to timestamps. Textual 'MON' doesn't even make any sense for intervals really, AFAICS. I could see displaying an interval in terms of '4 months', but 'April' makes no sense. Does Oracle have to_char for intervals, and if so how do they define it? Anyway, even if we think it's broken enough to remove going forward, we need some kind of stopgap fix to prevent the coredump in existing releases. regards, tom lane
> So this bug actually brings the issue of interval to_char() > formatting. Opinions? In digging around I discovered that it appears a decision was made to remove to_char(interval) at the 8.1 release but I've been unable to find the replacement for this functionality. This alarms me. Given the messages I've seen regarding to_char(interval), it's clearly a function that is used. As an example, in our telephony systems there is a column for start_time and for end_time. Billing involves a sum(end_time-start_time) for the appropriate project/client/period. Naturally, that interval needs to be displayed appropriately. The most common request I've seen (and it would be very helpful for me as well) is the ability to fill the largest displayed time increment with all remaining time in the interval. In other words when the total increment is 7 days, 7 hours, 28 minutes, 12 seconds the desired output would be 10528 minutes 12 seconds. Think phone-billing, race times, mission clocks, etc. So... 1) Is there really a plan to eliminate to_char(interval)? 2) If so, what is the replacement? 3) If there isn't a replacement and it's just scheduled for elimination, what harm was to_char(interval) causing to require its removal and what's the best way to lobby for its retention and improvement? Cheers, Steve
Steve Crawford wrote: >>So this bug actually brings the issue of interval to_char() >>formatting. Opinions? >> >> > >In digging around I discovered that it appears a decision was made to >remove to_char(interval) at the 8.1 release but I've been unable to >find the replacement for this functionality. This alarms me. > >Given the messages I've seen regarding to_char(interval), it's clearly >a function that is used. As an example, in our telephony systems >there is a column for start_time and for end_time. Billing involves a >sum(end_time-start_time) for the appropriate project/client/period. >Naturally, that interval needs to be displayed appropriately. > >The most common request I've seen (and it would be very helpful for me >as well) is the ability to fill the largest displayed time increment >with all remaining time in the interval. > >In other words when the total increment is 7 days, 7 hours, 28 >minutes, 12 seconds the desired output would be 10528 minutes 12 >seconds. Think phone-billing, race times, mission clocks, etc. > >So... > >1) Is there really a plan to eliminate to_char(interval)? > >2) If so, what is the replacement? > >3) If there isn't a replacement and it's just scheduled for >elimination, what harm was to_char(interval) causing to require its >removal and what's the best way to lobby for its retention and >improvement? > >Cheers, >Steve > >. > > > Steve, I am with you on this. The interval functionality is very useful and it will be bad if it gets eliminated. I believe that the best course of action is to keep the to_char(interval) but restrict the available format specifications (the textual representation specificators like Mon/Months). Regards, Lyubomir Petrov
Tom Lane wrote: >Lyubomir Petrov <lpetrov@sysmaster.com> writes: > > >>I have found what is causing the crash described in Bug 1500. Now I >>would like to fix it, but need opinions about what is the correct behaviour. >> >> > >Yeah, I just came to the same conclusion a little while ago: >http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2005-03/msg00908.php > > > >>Also the general to_char() Interval formatting seems broken anyway. >> >> > >Karel Zak has stated repeatedly that interval_to_char is fundamentally >wrong and should be removed. I'm not sure it's quite as bad as that, >but it does seem that a different set of formatting codes is needed for >intervals as opposed to timestamps. Textual 'MON' doesn't even make any >sense for intervals really, AFAICS. I could see displaying an interval >in terms of '4 months', but 'April' makes no sense. > >Does Oracle have to_char for intervals, and if so how do they define it? > >Anyway, even if we think it's broken enough to remove going forward, >we need some kind of stopgap fix to prevent the coredump in existing >releases. > > regards, tom lane > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org > >. > > > Tom, Well, I can see how the to_char functionality can be very useful for intervals - one can get the interval in days only, months and days, etc. But I think that the format specifications that convert to strings should be disallowed for intervals (Mon, Month, etc...). If we decide just to ignore the non-supported format code we can 1) make dch_date aware that it is called for interval and limit the choices (ignore the attempt to show textual name representation for example) 2) just ignore the attempt to show month name on invalid value in struct pg_tm. In the second case we'll need to change only this file several times using something like (this is good to be there anyway because of the array indexing): case DCH_Mon: + if (tm->tm_mon > 0) { + strcpy(inout, months[tm->tm_mon - 1]); + return 2; + } + return -1; + - strcpy(inout, months[tm->tm_mon - 1]); - return 2; The first case will probably have more impact. I think we can go with 2) for 8.0.2 and 1) for 8.1. Oracle has to_char() on intervals, but generally does not allow fancy formatting (limited format specifications only - FF, TZD, TZH, TZM, and TZR - which are not very useful anyway). Regards, Lyubomir Petrov
Steve Crawford <scrawford@pinpointresearch.com> writes:
> In digging around I discovered that it appears a decision was made to
> remove to_char(interval) at the 8.1 release but I've been unable to
> find the replacement for this functionality. This alarms me.
Yeah. Karel Zak, who wrote that code, is convinced we should remove it,
but I don't think anyone else is ...
regards, tom lane
On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 15:33 -0500, Tom Lane wrote: > Lyubomir Petrov <lpetrov@sysmaster.com> writes: > > I have found what is causing the crash described in Bug 1500. Now I > > would like to fix it, but need opinions about what is the correct behaviour. > > Yeah, I just came to the same conclusion a little while ago: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2005-03/msg00908.php > > > Also the general to_char() Interval formatting seems broken anyway. > > Karel Zak has stated repeatedly that interval_to_char is fundamentally > wrong and should be removed. I'm not sure it's quite as bad as that, > but it does seem that a different set of formatting codes is needed for > intervals as opposed to timestamps. Exactly. We had many discussions about it. Well, short summary: the current to_char(interval) is: interval -> struct tm -> string and it's definitely bad. You can't formatting interval as date/time string and you can't use calendar practices in particular case. The right solution is conversion: interval -> interval-string and it means definitely other (new) code for to_char(interval). I think useful for to_char(interval) is only format parser from formatting.c, it's 5% of all to_char() code :-( I don't think we want to maintain useless code in PG and answer every month in PG lists questions "why doesn't work it?". It's better remove it and wait for someone who write better implementation. BTW, I have started work on formatting library: http://people.redhat.com/kzak/libfmt/ contributors, volunteers? :-) Karel -- Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 20:03 -0500, Tom Lane wrote: > Steve Crawford <scrawford@pinpointresearch.com> writes: > > In digging around I discovered that it appears a decision was made to > > remove to_char(interval) at the 8.1 release but I've been unable to > > find the replacement for this functionality. This alarms me. > > Yeah. Karel Zak, who wrote that code, is convinced we should remove it, > but I don't think anyone else is ... I think I was Peter and Josh Berkus who convinced me that the code is bed. "we should remove..." is opinion only... http://groups- beta.google.com/group/comp.databases.postgresql.hackers/browse_frm/thread/a43f02de8017cabb/c290bc55d5e1e6b2?q=to_char(interval)+done&rnum=1#c290bc55d5e1e6b2 -- Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 02:32 +0100, Karel Zak wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 20:03 -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> > Steve Crawford <scrawford@pinpointresearch.com> writes:
> > > In digging around I discovered that it appears a decision was made to
> > > remove to_char(interval) at the 8.1 release but I've been unable to
> > > find the replacement for this functionality. This alarms me.
> >
> > Yeah. Karel Zak, who wrote that code, is convinced we should remove it,
> > but I don't think anyone else is ...
>
> I think I was Peter and Josh Berkus who convinced me that the code is
> bed. "we should remove..." is opinion only...
s/bed/bad/ :-)
.. but my body dreams about bed, good night (morning?),
Karel
--
Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 12:53:53 -0800, Steve Crawford <scrawford@pinpointresearch.com> wrote: > > 2) If so, what is the replacement? You should be able to use EXTRACT, some math to do your own formatting. For common operations you can define SQL functions to do what you want. Having to_char(interval) may be more convenient (if it does what you want), but you can get by without it.
Karel, > > Yeah. Karel Zak, who wrote that code, is convinced we should remove it, > > but I don't think anyone else is ... > > I think I was Peter and Josh Berkus who convinced me that the code is > bed. "we should remove..." is opinion only... I certainly didn't recommend removing it before we have a replacement ready. The complaint, btw, was that the current to_char formats intervals as if they were dates. This results in some rather confusing output. I wanted to improve to_char to support proper interval formatting, but apparently it's difficult to do that without breaking other aspects of to_char (at least, I was told that). What we need is a function or functions which do the following: SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min'; 2600 min SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'WK:DD:HR:MI' ); 0:1:19:20 SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '3 years 5 months','MM' ) || ' mons'; 41 mons etc. This would be more sophisticated than the logic employed for the current to_char, as the interval would be re-calculated in the units supplied, limited by the month/year|day/hour/minute boundary. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
This has my vote.... Lorne In <200503261404.14979.josh@agliodbs.com>, on 03/26/05 at 02:04 PM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> said: >Karel, >> > Yeah. áKarel Zak, who wrote that code, is convinced we should remove it, >> > but I don't think anyone else is ... >> >> áI think I was Peter and Josh Berkus who convinced me that the code is >> bed. "we should remove..." is opinion only... >I certainly didn't recommend removing it before we have a replacement >ready. >The complaint, btw, was that the current to_char formats intervals as if >they were dates. This results in some rather confusing output. I >wanted to improve to_char to support proper interval formatting, but >apparently it's difficult to do that without breaking other aspects of >to_char (at least, I was told that). >What we need is a function or functions which do the following: >SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min'; 2600 >min >SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'WK:DD:HR:MI' ); >0:1:19:20 >SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '3 years 5 months','MM' ) || ' mons'; 41 mons >etc. This would be more sophisticated than the logic employed for the >current to_char, as the interval would be re-calculated in the units >supplied, limited by the month/year|day/hour/minute boundary. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- lsunley@mb.sympatico.ca -----------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 02:04:14PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min'; > 2600 min Hmm, what if you wanted more than one literal string? Say "1 mon 3 days" ... your concatenation idea wouldn't work. ISTM the format string should allow unconverted literals, so you would use SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI min' ); -- Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[@]dcc.uchile.cl>) "Cuando no hay humildad las personas se degradan" (A. Christie)
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl> writes:
> ... ISTM the format string
> should allow unconverted literals, so you would use
> SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI min' );
... which to_char can do already, IIRC. The rewrite should define a new
set of format substitution codes, but not otherwise change the behavior
of to_char.
regards, tom lane
Alvaro,
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 02:04:14PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min';
> > 2600 min
>
> Hmm, what if you wanted more than one literal string? Say "1 mon 3
> days" ... your concatenation idea wouldn't work. ISTM the format string
> should allow unconverted literals, so you would use
>
> SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI min' );
Hmmm, good point.
Question: how does to_char tell the difference between a code ("MI") and a
code which is also part of a word? ("MIN").
--Josh
--
--Josh
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 15:56 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Alvaro,
>
> > On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 02:04:14PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min';
> > > 2600 min
> >
> > Hmm, what if you wanted more than one literal string? Say "1 mon 3
> > days" ... your concatenation idea wouldn't work. ISTM the format string
> > should allow unconverted literals, so you would use
> >
> > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI min' );
>
> Hmmm, good point.
>
> Question: how does to_char tell the difference between a code ("MI") and a
> code which is also part of a word? ("MIN").
It's pretty simple. to_char(..., 'MI "min"'). It's already supported by
to_char() format parser.
I think to_char(interval) should be support split interval to more
items, like:
to_char(INTERVAL '1d 3h 65s', 'HHh MIm SSs') ---> '27h 1m 5s'
Well, I'm going to check how difficult will be implement correct to_char
(interval).
Karel
--
Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 12:03 +0200, Karel Zak wrote: > On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 15:56 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Alvaro, > > > > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 02:04:14PM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: > > > > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) || ' min'; > > > > 2600 min > > > > > > Hmm, what if you wanted more than one literal string? Say "1 mon 3 > > > days" ... your concatenation idea wouldn't work. ISTM the format string > > > should allow unconverted literals, so you would use > > > > > > SELECT to_char( INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI min' ); > > Well, I'm going to check how difficult will be implement correct to_char > (interval). Hmm, if we want to support conversion like: '43 hours 20 minutes' --> 'MI min' how we should work with calendar INTERVAL units? For example 'month'? '1 month 1 day' --> 'D days' I think answer should be error message: "missing calendar unit 'month' in output format" Karel -- Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz> writes:
> Hmm, if we want to support conversion like:
> '43 hours 20 minutes' --> 'MI min'
> how we should work with calendar INTERVAL units? For example 'month'?
> '1 month 1 day' --> 'D days'
> I think answer should be error message: "missing calendar unit 'month'
> in output format"
Surely not. to_char for timestamps doesn't require that you output
every field of the value, and it shouldn't require that for intervals
either.
regression=# select to_char(now(), 'MI "min"');to_char
---------58 min
(1 row)
regards, tom lane
Tom, Karel, > Hmm, if we want to support conversion like: > '43 hours 20 minutes' --> 'MI min' > how we should work with calendar INTERVAL units? For example 'month'? > '1 month 1 day' --> 'D days' > I think answer should be error message: "missing calendar unit 'month' > in output format" Actually, there's a pretty well-defined boundary within interval types: year.month | day.hour.minute.second.millesecond This subtype boundary of intervals is even defined in the SQL spec. > Surely not. to_char for timestamps doesn't require that you output > every field of the value, and it shouldn't require that for intervals > either. That's an invalid comparison. There is no logical way to "roll up" timestamps into larger/smaller subtypes. There is with intervals. If you're arguing that this kink in the *useful* behavior of interval-->text conversion is confusingly inconsistent with what to_char does with other data types, and we should call the function something else, then I could potentially buy that (assuming that others agree). However, our proprietary functions are about being *useful*, not adhering to some unwritten de-facto standard. And I am, as someone who uses intervals heavily in applications, trying to define what the useful behaviour will be from a user's perspective. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 11:43 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Tom, Karel,
>
> > Hmm, if we want to support conversion like:
> > '43 hours 20 minutes' --> 'MI min'
> > how we should work with calendar INTERVAL units? For example 'month'?
> > '1 month 1 day' --> 'D days'
> > I think answer should be error message: "missing calendar unit 'month'
> > in output format"
>
> Actually, there's a pretty well-defined boundary within interval types:
> year.month | day.hour.minute.second.millesecond
Yes.
> This subtype boundary of intervals is even defined in the SQL spec.
>
> > Surely not. to_char for timestamps doesn't require that you output
> > every field of the value, and it shouldn't require that for intervals
> > either.
>
> That's an invalid comparison. There is no logical way to "roll up" timestamps
> into larger/smaller subtypes. There is with intervals.
Agree. There is two possible way how you can convert it:
a) extract and convert
'1h 10min 30s' --- 'MI "min"' ---> '10 min'
b) hold the interval and convert it to defined units
'1h 10min 30s' --- 'MI "min"' ---> '70.5 min'
> If you're arguing that this kink in the *useful* behavior of interval-->text
> conversion is confusingly inconsistent with what to_char does with other data
> types, and we should call the function something else, then I could
> potentially buy that (assuming that others agree). However, our proprietary
> functions are about being *useful*, not adhering to some unwritten de-facto
> standard. And I am, as someone who uses intervals heavily in applications,
> trying to define what the useful behaviour will be from a user's perspective.
I agree with Josh that for interval is more useful second way where
result from conversion is still useful interval.
There is no problem implement both, to_char() stuff already supports
global options and I can add for INTERVAL option 'EX' as extract.
a) to_char('1h 10min 30s', 'EXMI "min"') -> '10 min'
b) to_char('1h 10min 30s', 'MI "min"') -> '70.5 min'
BTW, for numbers to_char() disable extraction:
test=# select to_char(123.4::float, '.999');to_char
--------- .###
the result is not '.4'. I think important is always tradition how people
work with selected datetype. For TIMESTAMP is it common that you work
with extraction from full date/time description, but it's unusual for
numbers and I think for INTERVALs too.
Karel
--
Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
Based on this discussion I have added these TODO items:
* Prevent to_char() on interval from returning meaningless values
For example, to_char('1 month', 'mon') is meaningless. Basically, most date-related parameters to to_char() are
meaninglessfor intervals because interval is not anchored to a date.
* Allow to_char() on interval values to accumulate the highest unit requested
o to_char(INTERVAL '1 hour 5 minutes', 'MI') => 65 o to_char(INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'MI' ) =>
2600 o to_char(INTERVAL '43 hours 20 minutes', 'WK:DD:HR:MI') => 0:1:19:20 o to_char(INTERVAL '3 years 5
months','MM')=> 41
Some special format flag would be required to request such accumulation. Such functionality could also be added to
EXTRACT.Prevent accumulation that crosses the month/day boundary because of the uneven number of days in a month.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karel Zak wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 11:43 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Tom, Karel,
> >
> > > Hmm, if we want to support conversion like:
> > > '43 hours 20 minutes' --> 'MI min'
> > > how we should work with calendar INTERVAL units? For example 'month'?
> > > '1 month 1 day' --> 'D days'
> > > I think answer should be error message: "missing calendar unit 'month'
> > > in output format"
> >
> > Actually, there's a pretty well-defined boundary within interval types:
> > year.month | day.hour.minute.second.millesecond
>
> Yes.
>
> > This subtype boundary of intervals is even defined in the SQL spec.
> >
> > > Surely not. to_char for timestamps doesn't require that you output
> > > every field of the value, and it shouldn't require that for intervals
> > > either.
> >
> > That's an invalid comparison. There is no logical way to "roll up" timestamps
> > into larger/smaller subtypes. There is with intervals.
>
> Agree. There is two possible way how you can convert it:
>
> a) extract and convert
>
> '1h 10min 30s' --- 'MI "min"' ---> '10 min'
>
> b) hold the interval and convert it to defined units
>
> '1h 10min 30s' --- 'MI "min"' ---> '70.5 min'
>
> > If you're arguing that this kink in the *useful* behavior of interval-->text
> > conversion is confusingly inconsistent with what to_char does with other data
> > types, and we should call the function something else, then I could
> > potentially buy that (assuming that others agree). However, our proprietary
> > functions are about being *useful*, not adhering to some unwritten de-facto
> > standard. And I am, as someone who uses intervals heavily in applications,
> > trying to define what the useful behaviour will be from a user's perspective.
>
> I agree with Josh that for interval is more useful second way where
> result from conversion is still useful interval.
>
> There is no problem implement both, to_char() stuff already supports
> global options and I can add for INTERVAL option 'EX' as extract.
>
> a) to_char('1h 10min 30s', 'EXMI "min"') -> '10 min'
> b) to_char('1h 10min 30s', 'MI "min"') -> '70.5 min'
>
>
> BTW, for numbers to_char() disable extraction:
>
> test=# select to_char(123.4::float, '.999');
> to_char
> ---------
> .###
>
> the result is not '.4'. I think important is always tradition how people
> work with selected datetype. For TIMESTAMP is it common that you work
> with extraction from full date/time description, but it's unusual for
> numbers and I think for INTERVALs too.
>
> Karel
>
> --
> Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
-- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610)
359-1001+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square,
Pennsylvania19073
Bruce, > * Prevent to_char() on interval from returning meaningless values > * Allow to_char() on interval values to accumulate the highest unit > requested Sounds like it would cover my use cases. Others? -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco