Thread: Civility of core/hackers group
Here is the resignation letter from Jordan Hubbard, long time FreeBSD core member. The interesting part is where he explains that being in the core/hackers group isn't fun anymore: http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2837 FreeBSD is certainly a larger project, so I don't know how relevant it is to our group, but I do think it is important to recognize how easily a group can slip into a unhealthy situation. The killer line is: ...core still feels too much like the pre-WWII Polish Parliament sometimes, where we're fully capable of arguing some issueright up to the point where tanks are rolling through the front door and rendering the whole debate somewhat moot. We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. For those curious what the PostgreSQL core group discusses behind closed doors -- basically nothing. I don't think we have had any meaningful discussion for many months, so it is not like things are being debated in core that you aren't hearing about; nothing is happening in core because there no conflicts. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do wish people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles, however. It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the Postgres project if Tom left one day... Chris
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we > > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do wish > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles, > however. Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me, but it seems to blow over quickly. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Wrote a rather long message first time through. Anyway, basic problem is the major tickmarks on the next release. SMPng, KSEs, and various security overhauls are touching many portions of the sourcecode in a single shot. Normal development since the project started has been fairly isolated. So theres a bit of a headache with people committing where they normally wouldn't, but waiting for due process could take forever (commits across 4 or 5 different maintainers sections). So, after the big commits, the maintainers do bug triage. All in all, it's working rather well. A ton of progress has been made and v5 release will be rather nice. It'd be kinda like PostgreSQL implementing a fully object based storage mechanism and interface, going threaded, and replacing node trees with something else for v7.3. Once you start one, might as well do the others since you hit most of the code anyway. With 3 or 4 people doing that it can be done. Getting 100+ comitters (not to mention those sending in patches) to work along side that mess and you can see why Jordan is tired of baby sitting. Can't blame him. I think he had the most fun when he was simply coming up with brilliant ideas like the ports tree. I still think he has a few ideas left. Hopefully this will allow him the time to implement -- probably on Darwin, but if it's good it'll float to <name project here> shortly after. -- Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:50 PM Subject: [HACKERS] Civility of core/hackers group > Here is the resignation letter from Jordan Hubbard, long time FreeBSD > core member. The interesting part is where he explains that being in > the core/hackers group isn't fun anymore: > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2837 > > FreeBSD is certainly a larger project, so I don't know how relevant it > is to our group, but I do think it is important to recognize how easily > a group can slip into a unhealthy situation. The killer line is: > > ...core still feels too much like the pre-WWII Polish Parliament > sometimes, where we're fully capable of arguing some issue right up to > the point where tanks are rolling through the front door and rendering > the whole debate somewhat moot. > > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. > > For those curious what the PostgreSQL core group discusses behind closed > doors -- basically nothing. I don't think we have had any meaningful > discussion for many months, so it is not like things are being debated > in core that you aren't hearing about; nothing is happening in core > because there no conflicts. > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org >
> > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do wish > > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles, > > however. > > Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me, but > it seems to blow over quickly. Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual. Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though...
Rod Taylor wrote: > > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do > wish > > > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument > styles, > > > however. > > > > Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me, > but > > it seems to blow over quickly. > > Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual. > > Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though... "Whiteboard dual" is probably a good characterization. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Rod Taylor wrote: > > > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do > > wish > > > > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument > > styles, > > > > however. > > > > > > Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me, > > but > > > it seems to blow over quickly. > > > > Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual. > > > > Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though... > > "Whiteboard dual" is probably a good characterization. Or, is it "dualing whiteboards" (banjo player not included.)
On Tuesday 30 April 2002 02:36 am, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we > > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do wish > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles, > however. Well, Chris, having been a Usenet user for over ten years (and a C-News admin for the first three of that), I've seen 'discussions' that were really ad hominem. I've seen stuff that wouldn't even be found on slashdot. Visit the old archives on google of alt.flame. Or news.groups. Or even the civil news.admin.... :-) This group is far and away the most civil public development group I have ever seen. Really. No joke. > It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the > Postgres project if Tom left one day... Oooohhhh, don't give me nightmares! Tom is the original 'Bugzilla' in my book. But it's still educational to se how he got started, and how recent that really was. Of course, PostgreSQL existed before he came in, and PostgreSQL would exist afterwards -- that is, after all, the beauty of free software. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we > > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens. > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :) I do wish > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles, > however. I'd be more concerned if hackers didn't argue for their own point of view/code/methodology. Gavin
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:
>> It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the
>> Postgres project if Tom left one day...
> Of course, PostgreSQL existed before he came in, and PostgreSQL would exist
> afterwards -- that is, after all, the beauty of free software.
I was about to make the same comment. The project can survive the loss
of any individual member(s).
regards, tom lane