Thread: History question
While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres (the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts thereof. The original Postgres FAQ say Q. What is the connection between POSTGRES and University Ingres? A. There is none, aside from Prof. Stonebraker. There is no compatibility between the two software packages, and theresearch projects had differing objectives This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same Prof. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael@Fam-Meskes.De Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:50:19AM +0100, Michael Meskes wrote: > While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres > (the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we > or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts > thereof. > > The original Postgres FAQ say > > Q. What is the connection between POSTGRES and University Ingres? > > A. There is none, aside from Prof. Stonebraker. There is no > compatibility between the two software packages, and the research > projects had differing objectives > > This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same > Prof. Ingres - 1982 -- 1985 - Michael Stonebraker and Eugene Wong at UC-Berkeley - Ingres = InteractiveGraphics and Retrieval System - original developed on PDP-11/45 - original query languagewas QUEL Postgres - 1985(?) - 1994 - based on Ingres - start with idea make Ingres more OO - thefather was again Stonebraker Postgres95 - 1994-1995 - UC-Berkeley's students Jolly Chen and Andrew Yu Mariposa - based on Postgres95 - keynote was specific non realtime replication - alive this projectstill? PostgreSQL - summer 1996 - OpenSource Companies: * Ingres Corporation (set up Stonebraker?) * Robert Epstein from UC-Berkeley team set up Sybase * Paula Hawthorn fromUC-Berkeley team set up Illustra Information Technologies Incorporated, now know as Informix If I know (from some resources on web) M. Stonebraker work with/onIngres, Illustra and Informix. By the way on the world exist two original branchs of SQL DB where ispossible found inspiration of all DB: * System-R nowknow as DB2 * Ingres (PostgreSQL, Informix) http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/far/ch6.htmlhttp://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95.htmlhttp://db.cs.berkeley.edu/ Do know some other good URL about DB history? Karel -- Karel Zak <zakkr@zf.jcu.cz>http://home.zf.jcu.cz/~zakkr/C, PostgreSQL, PHP, WWW, http://docs.linux.cz, http://mape.jcu.cz
> While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
> (the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
> or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
> thereof.
It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started,
other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor".
Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
it...
> This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same
> Prof.
Right.
- Thomas
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> > While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres
> > (the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we
> > or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts
> > thereof.
>
> It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started,
> other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor".
>
> Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase
> it...
The history paper (the formatting was messed up with the copy/paste):
The History of PostgreSQL Development
by Bruce Momjian
PostgreSQL is the most advanced open-source database
server. It is Object-Relational(ORDBMS), and
is supported by a team of Internet developers. PostgreSQL
began as Ingres, developed at the University of
California at Berkeley(1977-1985). The Ingres code was
taken and enhanced by Relational
Technologies/Ingres Corporation, which produced one of the
first commercially successful relational
database servers. (Ingres Corp. was later purchased by
Computer Associates.) Also at Berkeley, Michael
Stonebraker led a team to develop an object-relational
database server called Postgres(1986-1994). The
Postgres code was taken by Illustra and developed into a
commercial product. (Illustra was later purchased
by Informix and integrated into Informix's Universal
Server.) Two Berkeley graduate students, Jolly Chen
and Andrew Yu, added SQL capabilities to Postgres, and
called it Postgres95(1994-1995). They left
Berkeley, but Jolly continued maintaining Postgres95,
which had an active mailing list.
Vince.
--
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On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:51:55PM +0000, Thomas Lockhart wrote: > Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase > it... Vince already posted this. > > This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same > > Prof. > > Right. Yes, and that's how I remember it. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael@Fam-Meskes.De Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
> > > This certainly sounds like these two are different projects by the same > > > Prof. > > > > Right. > > Yes, and that's how I remember it. IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as Ingres. So I think they are not completely unrelated. Andreas
"Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD" <ZeugswetterA@spardat.at> writes:
> IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as
> Ingres.
> So I think they are not completely unrelated.
QUEL and POSTQUEL are the two query languages in question, I believe.
Never having studied either, I have no clue how closely they are
related.
In any case, I'm pretty sure that Postgres was a completely new
implementation that used none of the Ingres code. The no-overwrite
storage management scheme was definitely a new concept in Postgres.
regards, tom lane
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote: > > > > While surfing through our web page I found some references about Postgres > > > (the original Berkley project) starting as Ingres. Now I wonder whether we > > > or let's say the original Postgres project still used Ingres or parts > > > thereof. > > > > It doesn't, and never did. Not sure how that impression got started, > > other than some confusion over "based on" vs "successor". > > > > Where exactly did you find this on the web site? We should rephrase > > it... > > The history paper (the formatting was messed up with the copy/paste): Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres. However, Stonebraker was the same, and the team was probably similar. The text in the first chapter of my book is a little clearer, calling Ingres an ancestor of Postgres. There is a link between them, it is just hard to clearly specify it without going into all sorts of contortions in the text. I wonder if we should remove the old history article and put the first chapter of my book in there instead. It is the same content, but updated. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
...
> Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres.
Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How
about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways
a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development
(witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of
the Ingres code base).
Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted
content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content...
- Thomas
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote: > ... > > Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres. > > Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How > about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways > a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development > (witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of > the Ingres code base). > > Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted > content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content... Either way it's Bruce's text (both book and stuff on the website) so I'll let you guys figure that out. BTW, there's a reference that Daemon News also has a copy of that in their archives. Anyway I'm in class the rest of the day so whatever gets decided I'll get it tomorrow. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com http://www.pop4.net 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo atPop4 Networking Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com ==========================================================================
> "Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD" <ZeugswetterA@spardat.at> writes: > > IIRC Postgres started out with the same [but extended] query language as > > Ingres. > > So I think they are not completely unrelated. > > QUEL and POSTQUEL are the two query languages in question, I believe. > Never having studied either, I have no clue how closely they are > related. The languages were almost identical, except for the object creation extensions. > In any case, I'm pretty sure that Postgres was a completely new > implementation that used none of the Ingres code. The no-overwrite > storage management scheme was definitely a new concept in Postgres. None shared. I have the Ingres code here and it is pretty small. Entire source is only 1.7 megs uncompressed. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> ... > > Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres. > > Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How > about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways > a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development > (witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of > the Ingres code base). Here is the book text. Is that clearer. In fact, this paragraph was worked on just to clarify the relationship. Yes, I agree it is a stretch, but to ignore University Ingres seemed wrong too: POSTGRESQL'S ancestor was Ingres, developed at the University of California at Berkeley (1977-1985). The Ingres code was later enhanced by Relational Technologies/Ingres Corporation, 6.1 which produced one of the first commercially successful relational database servers. Also at Berkeley, Michael Stonebraker led a team to develop an object-relational database server called Postgres (1986-1994). Illustra 6.2 took the Postgres code and developed it into a commercial product. > Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted > content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content... Uh, of course the book is on the web site, but I am unsure about have it changed because it wouldn't match the book. We can change what is there now because that doesn't match the book anyway. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote: > > > ... > > > Yes, no code went from Ingres to Postgres. > > > > Right. Trying to link Ingres with Postgres is a bit of a stretch. How > > about linking the team and leaving it at that? Postgres was in many ways > > a clean break to try some new ideas, not an evolutionary development > > (witness the first implementation in lisp, which afaik was not part of > > the Ingres code base). > > > > Is the book content copyrighted differently from the currently posted > > content? If so, perhaps someone would like to just update the content... > > Either way it's Bruce's text (both book and stuff on the website) so > I'll let you guys figure that out. BTW, there's a reference that > Daemon News also has a copy of that in their archives. Anyway I'm > in class the rest of the day so whatever gets decided I'll get it > tomorrow. OK, I have updated the PostgreSQL history article to match my book, which mentions Ingres as the "ancestor" of PostgreSQL, developed at Berkeley too. Thanks. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026