Thread: PostgreSQL versus MySQL
Hello, I think the below just about says it all: http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg Sincerely, Joshua Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I think the below just about says it all: > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg > > Sincerely, > > Joshua Drake Too bad the symbol of Oracle Corp. isn't a peanut... Mike Mascari mascarm@mascari.com
> I think the below just about says it all: > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who owns the copyright to the image. -sc -- Sean Chittenden
On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > > I think the below just about says it all: > > > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg > > Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some > snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe > that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who > owns the copyright to the image. -sc If the dolphin were in a different setting, one could wonder if it got caught in a .net ;-)
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I think the below just about says it all: > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg Oh. My. God. That is just so wrong. But I want a TShirt with that on it so bad... :-)
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I think the below just about says it all: > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg Is that available in a higher res version, I'd really like it as a background on my 1600x1200 desktop.
Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > >>> I think the below just about says it all: >>> >>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >> Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Holmes http://sholmes.ws http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scottholmes scottholmes@sbcglobal.net Independent Programmer/Analyst Passport 4GL PHP HTML Composer PostgreSQL Informix 4GL, SQL --------------------------------------------------------------------- There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt. J Sean Chittenden wrote: >> I think the below just about says it all: >> >>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >> >> > >Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some >snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe >that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who >owns the copyright to the image. -sc > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another open source domination theme debunked", or whatever. Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles. Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt. > > J > > > Sean Chittenden wrote: > >>> I think the below just about says it all: >>> >>> http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >>> >> >> >> Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some >> snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe >> that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who >> owns the copyright to the image. -sc >> >> >> >
On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > >>> I think the below just about says it all: > >>> > >>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.j > >>>pg > > Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since > I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority complex). BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same. I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you. Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with a database in our own class. Cheers, Steve
Hello, O.k. boys here ya go: http://www.cafeshops.com/linuxports Sincerely, Joshua Drake scott.marlowe wrote: >On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > >>Hello, >> >> I think the below just about says it all: >> >>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >> >> > >Is that available in a higher res version, I'd really like it as a >background on my 1600x1200 desktop. > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
LOL, good points! OTOH, until we fix some of the problems we have been talking about in the last week, we are kind of BETWEEN mysql and other databases. Postgres is far better than Mysql, though, not a near cousin. Steve Crawford wrote: >On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > > >>Andrew L. Gould wrote: >> >> >>>On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> I think the below just about says it all: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.j >>>>>pg >>>>> >>>>> >>Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since >>I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) >> >> > >More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL >with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are >somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority >complex). > >BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be >in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or >Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai >are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same. > >I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you >can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many >projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going >to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you >looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that >when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you. > >Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with >a database in our own class. > >Cheers, >Steve > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > > >
Hello, I would agree with you from a technical perspective but the reality is the most used Open Source databases are MySQL and PostgreSQL so there is a logical comparison. Sincerley, Joshua Drake Steve Crawford wrote: >On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > > >>Andrew L. Gould wrote: >> >> >>>On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> I think the below just about says it all: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.j >>>>>pg >>>>> >>>>> >>Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since >>I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) >> >> > >More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL >with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are >somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority >complex). > >BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be >in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or >Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai >are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same. > >I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you >can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many >projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going >to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you >looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that >when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you. > >Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with >a database in our own class. > >Cheers, >Steve > > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
Hello, MySQL has over 15 million dollars in capital. We have comics. Sincerely, Joshua Drake Dennis Gearon wrote: > I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put > in the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, > "we sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, > "Another open source domination theme debunked", or whatever. > > Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles. > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt. >> >> J >> >> >> Sean Chittenden wrote: >> >>>> I think the below just about says it all: >>>> >>>> http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some >>> snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe >>> that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who >>> owns the copyright to the image. -sc >>> >>> >>> >> > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Dennis Gearon wrote: > I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in > the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we > sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another > open source domination theme debunked", or whatever. > > Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles. Oh come off it! Surely 2 cents is worth more than 0.56 rubles! -- Nigel J. Andrews ...who gave up counting at one stage and started using notes in units of "a wodge".
Nigel J. Andrews wrote: >On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Dennis Gearon wrote: > > > >>I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in >>the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we >>sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another >>open source domination theme debunked", or whatever. >> >>Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles. >> >> > >Oh come off it! Surely 2 cents is worth more than 0.56 rubles! > > as of 2003.09.18 23:15:31 GMT $0.02 USD == 0.610182 RUR :P -- Anthony Best <abest@digitalflex.net> Consultant, DigitalFlex LLC 801-541-5013
Or perhaps the image could be used exactly as shown - with the dolphin on the spit - except that the dolphin could be encasedin an aquarium to make it clear that it is not being harmed. -Roger Dennis Gearon wrote: > I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put > in the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, > "we sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, > "Another open source domination theme debunked", or whatever. > > Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles. > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt. >> >> J >> >> >> Sean Chittenden wrote: >> >>>> I think the below just about says it all: >>>> >>>> http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some >>> snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe >>> that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who >>> owns the copyright to the image. -sc >>> >>> >>> >> > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database. ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Steve Crawford wrote: > On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > > >>> I think the below just about says it all: > > >>> > > >>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.j > > >>>pg > > > > Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since > > I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) > > More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL > with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are > somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority > complex). I think that MySQL and Postgresql tend to occupy different problem solution spaces. There's some overlap, but generally, I recommend MySQL for CMS stuff, where multiple collations and built in full text indexing are needed, and where you don't want to have to worry about tuning or maintaining the database to get good performance. These are situations where writes are heavily outnumbered by reads, and MySQL seems a good fit. Postgresql is better for doing things with numbers, transactions, complex data sets, and environments where writes make up a large portion of what the database is doing. Unfortunately, MySQL is busily trying to market themselves into the space that Postgresql is so much better at, and they're doing a pretty good job of it. While I wouldn't wear the Elephant roasting a Dolphin TShirt to while trying to make a "sale" of Postgresql over MySQL, I'd certainly wear it around some of my LUG buddies, who would likely "get it". A lot of my friends think I'm a MySQL bigot, even though when I'm comparing MySQL to Postgresql, I'm generally pointing out one wart in Postgresql for each one in MySQL. The lack of multiple locale support within a single cluster, lack of an integrated vacuum method, need for more sysadmin skill / time in maintenance and tuning, slow aggregate performance, etc... But often, all they're hearing are the negatives MySQL has if I'm comparing. Why? Because they've had smoke blown up their orifices about how great MySQL is and how it can do anything Postgresql can do now that it has innodb tables. Why have they heard this so much? MySQL has the budget to keep putting out press releases and paying for more people to give speeches than Postgresql. And MySQL doesn't fight fair in my opinion. they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert 8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4 can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them. Well, it bothers me, and it should bother their users, but they gloss right over their own warts while pointing out ours. To this day their crashme suite lists the maximum query size of Postgresql as 16 Megs. I've told them many times it's not limited. Have they changed it? No. Why? Because it looks a lot better to say MySQL has a maximum query size of 1 meg versus 16 meg for pgsql than to admit that it's their 1 meg versus our UNLIMITED. While I'm not sure the TShirts are the answer, I would gladly wear one to a LUG meeting in order to be a lightening rod for questions about pgsql. and if it generates discussion and someone finds out they've been LIED to by MySQL AB, all the better. > BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be > in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or > Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai > are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same. But we don't have the luxury of Mercedes of already owning a large chunk of the market, and MySQL already spends a fair amount of effort targeting us. Like it or not, many folks DO compare us to them, and will continue to do so until they have been enlightened. > I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you > can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many > projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going > to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you > looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that > when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you. I think the best response is the informed one. And the fair and level headed one. Sure, MySQL is a great storage subsystem for text and web content. I wouldn't use it to run the payroll though, and here's why... > Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with > a database in our own class. I think MySQL is in our class in some ways, and we're in Oracle's class in many ways. What matters is not what class we and they are in, but what class we and they are PERCEIVED to be in. And most average users equate us as being similar, because they don't know better. Pointing out where each database is strong, while making it clear that Postgresql is the heavy lifting winner is my approach, and it works quite well. The worse thing that can happen for Postgresql is for someone to move an application from MySQL to Postgresql if that application is better suited to MySQL. and those applications exist. Being honest and fair will win hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes rocket, they'll remember who to come to.
On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > >>> I think the below just about says it all: > >>> > >>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg > > Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I > care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) We're among friends; and, quite frankly, I needed a good laugh today. I don't think any of us plan run the image up a flag pole.
"scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes:
> ... Being honest and fair will win
> hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
> rocket, they'll remember who to come to.
I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:
MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.
Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)
Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.
regards, tom lane
"Oracle = Saturn IV." ?!???
Perhaps they claim to be. More like a shuttle with pretensions. Oracle was utterly unable to support our web site. And
thenthey wanted a truely preposterous sum for their wretched software.
Informix, on the other hand, has performed like, well, like a Saturn [which, by the way, the US could not build again
...apparently they lost the plans]. But it also costs a fair bit o' pocket change.
Now, maybe if we take a couple of Titan IIs and stack them on top of each other ...
Greg Williamson
DBA GlobeXplorer LLC
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Lane [mailto:tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us]
Sent: Thu 9/18/2003 10:30 PM
To: scott.marlowe
Cc: Steve Crawford; Scott Holmes; PgSQL General ML
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL versus MySQL
"scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes:
> ... Being honest and fair will win
> hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
> rocket, they'll remember who to come to.
I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:
MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.
Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)
Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.
regards, tom lane
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I think the below just about says it all: > > http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg Cool ! > > Sincerely, > > Joshua Drake > > > Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet, Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia) Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote: > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote: > > >>> I think the below just about says it all: > > >>> > > >>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg > > > > Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I > > care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins) > > We're among friends; and, quite frankly, I needed a good laugh today. I don't > think any of us plan run the image up a flag pole. Exactly my impression. Good laugh and gigh spirits for this day. > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html > Regards, Oleg _____________________________________________________________ Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet, Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia) Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/ phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote: > "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes: > > ... Being honest and fair will win > > hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes > > rocket, they'll remember who to come to. > > I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps: > > MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's > still a model rocket. > > Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary > probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-) All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots. > Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford > the price tag. What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Johnson, Jr. ron.l.johnson@cox.net Jefferson, LA USA The difference between Rock&Roll and Country Music? Old Rockers still on tour are pathetic, but old Country singers are still great.
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 02:06, Gregory S. Williamson wrote: > "Oracle = Saturn IV." ?!??? > > Perhaps they claim to be. More like a shuttle with pretensions. > Oracle was utterly unable to support our web site. And then I'm surprised. There are many huge Oracle databases out there. > they wanted a truely preposterous sum for their wretched > software. How do you think Larry pays for his racing yachts? > Informix, on the other hand, has performed like, well, like a > Saturn [which, by the way, the US could not build again ... > apparently they lost the plans]. But it also costs a fair > bit o' pocket change. Who's want to build a 40-year-old rocket? > Now, maybe if we take a couple of Titan IIs and stack them on > top of each other ... Better is to take a bunch of Titan engines and make a big lift vehicle. > Greg Williamson > DBA GlobeXplorer LLC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Lane [mailto:tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us] > Sent: Thu 9/18/2003 10:30 PM > To: scott.marlowe > Cc: Steve Crawford; Scott Holmes; PgSQL General ML > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL versus MySQL > > "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes: > > ... Being honest and fair will win > > hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes > > rocket, they'll remember who to come to. > > I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps: > > MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's > still a model rocket. > > Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary > probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-) > > Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford > the price tag. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Johnson, Jr. ron.l.johnson@cox.net Jefferson, LA USA Spit in one hand, and wish for peace in the other. Guess which is more effective...
El Jue 18 Sep 2003 20:34, scott.marlowe escribió:
>
> they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a
> few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk
> constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert
> 8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4
> can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them.
You mean that when they hit the limit, all other inserts have the MAX value?
That would be terrible!
--
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Programador, Administrador, DBA | Centro de Telematica
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del Litoral
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On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 19:34, scott.marlowe wrote:
> > Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
> > a database in our own class.
>
> I think MySQL is in our class in some ways, and we're in Oracle's class in
> many ways. What matters is not what class we and they are in, but what
> class we and they are PERCEIVED to be in. And most average users equate
> us as being similar, because they don't know better. Pointing out where
> each database is strong, while making it clear that Postgresql is the
> heavy lifting winner is my approach, and it works quite well.
>
We can't change the perception of being in mysql's class by always
comparing ourselves to them. I think discussion that is initiated by us
should focus on comparisons to oracle,db2,informix,m$. We only need to
compare ourselves to mysql in response to other questioning us about
them, and when we do try to stick to technical considerations as much as
possible.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote: > > "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes: > > > ... Being honest and fair will win > > > hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes > > > rocket, they'll remember who to come to. > > > > I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps: > > > > MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's > > still a model rocket. > > > > Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary > > probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-) > > All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots. > > > Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford > > the price tag. > > What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Martin Marques wrote: > El Jue 18 Sep 2003 20:34, scott.marlowe escribió: > > > > they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a > > few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk > > constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert > > 8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4 > > can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them. > > You mean that when they hit the limit, all other inserts have the MAX value? > That would be terrible! Yes it would. And it's exacly how MySQL works: lookee here: mysql> create table test (i1 int, i2 numeric(6,2) not null); Query OK, 0 rows affected (0.01 sec) mysql> insert into test values (12345678901234,123456.23); Query OK, 1 row affected (0.01 sec) mysql> select * from test; +------------+----------+ | i1 | i2 | +------------+----------+ | 2147483647 | 99999.99 | +------------+----------+ 1 row in set (0.00 sec) Hey, nice database to run payroll on, huh? Happens with innodb tables too. So how can they logically claim the C in ACID, when the data I put in is not the data that got inserted? What's the word to describe that behaviour? Inconsistent. :-)
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, scott.marlowe wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote: > > > "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> writes: > > > > ... Being honest and fair will win > > > > hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes > > > > rocket, they'll remember who to come to. > > > > > > I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps: > > > > > > MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's > > > still a model rocket. > > > > > > Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary > > > probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-) > > > > All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots. > > > > > Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford > > > the price tag. > > > > What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? > > http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm That's not the best URL, here's a better one: http://www.space.com/news/a11_nomanmissions.html Basically, the Saturn IV was the third stage of the Saturn V rocket if I read that correctly, and the one that made the final boost to escape from LEO to go to the moon. Oddly enough, it appears the stages were named Saturn IC (first stage), II(second stage) and IV (third stage), with no III I could see.
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote: > > What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? > > http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm actually, may i suggeset http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4, the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4 was dropped) see http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm) this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find interesting: http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration. the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled. cheers, richard -- Richard Welty rwelty@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
Richard Welty <rwelty@averillpark.net> writes: > http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html > I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want > to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration. > the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled. Sheesh. This is what I get for making an off-the-cuff analogy without researching it first, I guess ;-) For the record, I did mean Saturn V, not IV. regards, tom lane
sean@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes: >> I think the below just about says it all: >> >> http://www.commandprompt.com/images/mammoth_versus_dolphin_500.jpg > > Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some > snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe > that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who > owns the copyright to the image. -sc I'm not sure this presents quite the right message. A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin over a spit. Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are in the advocacy group. And I thought that MySQL _wasn't_ the real competition, and that the PostgreSQL community had higher standards and such... (Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously funny at some weird visceral level.) -- "cbbrowne","@","libertyrms.info" <http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/> Christopher Browne (416) 646 3304 x124 (land)
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 17:15, Christopher Browne wrote: > sean@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes: [snip] > A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get > it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin > over a spit. > > Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and > the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are > in the advocacy group. When I saw the image, I had to check at mysql.com to ensure that the dolphin actually *is* the MySQL mascot. [snip] > (Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that > find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously > funny at some weird visceral level.) http://www.geekswithguns.com/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Johnson, Jr. ron.l.johnson@cox.net Jefferson, LA USA "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time." Bertrand Meyer
Richard Welty wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> > What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? >> >> http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm > > actually, may i suggeset > > http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm > > there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4, > the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4 > was dropped) see > > http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm) > > this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on > sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find > interesting: > > http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html > > I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want > to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration. > the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled. Whereas despite the crashes, the Space Shuttle with it's Add-On-Collection look alike is yet most popular ;-) Jan > > cheers, > richard -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
Jan Wieck wrote: > > > Richard Welty wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe" >> <scott.marlowe@ihs.com> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> >>> > What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V? >>> >>> http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm >> >> >> actually, may i suggeset >> >> http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm >> >> there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4, >> the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4 >> was dropped) see >> >> http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm) >> >> this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on >> sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find >> interesting: >> >> http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html >> >> I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might >> want >> to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium >> configuration. >> the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled. > > > Whereas despite the crashes, the Space Shuttle with it's > Add-On-Collection look alike is yet most popular ;-) BTW this weekend we are going to launch a new satellite using ariane V rockets ( http://www.satexpo.it/en/news-new.php/1?c=6531 ) this mean more users and more stress for our Postgres installation :-) http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html some pictures here: http://66.33.199.225/image_library/images_sub_index.html Regards Gaetano Mendola
Hello, All due respect to everyone but political correctness is essentially the living with the feeling that you are a politician. I am not a politician, neither is Command Prompt. We are a business, we have opinions, views and a sense of humor. These traits may or may not be representative of other people's views, opinions and or sense of humor. If it is not to your liking, don't view it, and don't purchase a shirt of mug. Personally I have no problem standing up and saying, we going to eat you alive because in my not so humble opinion, and my very business plan states that our purpose is insure that PostgreSQL is the number one choice for database use in the small to medium size business. If that means I upset some people along the way... well I am not a politician, I don't have to make everybody happy. Cheers! Joshua D. Drake Ron Johnson wrote: >On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 17:15, Christopher Browne wrote: > > >>sean@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes: >> >> >[snip] > > >>A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get >>it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin >>over a spit. >> >>Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and >>the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are >>in the advocacy group. >> >> > >When I saw the image, I had to check at mysql.com to ensure that >the dolphin actually *is* the MySQL mascot. > >[snip] > > >>(Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that >>find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously >>funny at some weird visceral level.) >> >> > >http://www.geekswithguns.com/ > > > -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.
Ron Johnson wrote: > > > Who's want to build a 40-year-old rocket? You'd be surpised. Some plans for replacing the shuttle call for going back to Saturn V's. NASA went with the shuttle design in the first place because resusable was supposed to be cheaper, but it hasn't turned out that way.
[this is all horribly offtopic, but since the listadmins haven't commenced
summary execution yet... i have a suggestion to make about offtopic
discussions, which appears at the end]
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:12:37 -0400 Joseph Shraibman <jks@selectacast.net> wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > Who's want to build a 40-year-old rocket?
> You'd be surpised. Some plans for replacing the shuttle call for going
> back to Saturn
> V's.
sort of. a NASA committee has proposed reviving the Apollo capsule in an
evolved form. they'd use the existing mold lines, with new avionics and
probably a different service module. it'd be launched by a man rated
version of either a heavy Atlas 5 or a heavy Delta 4. the committee is
regarded as fairly credible, one of the co-chairs was John Young who has
flown in space more than once.
however, the russian Soyuz is the direct descendant of the old R-7
ballistic missile, which happens to be the first true ICBM (it beat all the
US ICBMs into operational service back in the 50s.) it's basically the same
rocket that launched Sputnik, Vostok, and all the other manned russian
space craft. it's well understood, reliable, and since the russians don't
have a budget to engineer new rockets, will be in service for the
forseeable future.
> NASA went with the shuttle design in the first place because
> resusable was supposed
> to be cheaper, but it hasn't turned out that way.
that's because they decided to pretend that the engineering prototype was
ready for production service, instead of testing to destruct and then
building the real system.
re offtopic discussions:
i suggest creating an offtopic@postgresql.org list for them. that way,
you can suggest taking a discussion to offtopic. i've done this for my
mailing list server, with good results.
of course, rocketry discussions are welcome on offtopic@digest.net, but
you'll have to put up with motorheads discussing politics, religion, linux,
unix, and SCO (topics which are not always distinguishable from each
other.)
cheers,
richard
--
Richard Welty rwelty@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592
Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security