Thread: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Mike Meyer wrote: > How about ditching the frames entirely? Not only are they > problematical from a UI perspective, they're now passe. See <URL: > http://www.python.org/ > or <URL: http://www.freebsd.org/ > for a more > modern design. > > Of course, pages that put everything in a table to do layout load slow > and tend to come out ugly on anything that isn't pretty much a clone > of the designers system, but they beat frames hollow. Ya know what I'm finding really passe? Ppl that come up with these critisms but really don't present an alternative? I personally like the frames...I like not having to reload everything when only one piece changes...I thnk it *looks* nice... Of course, if you have a better idea of how the site should be lay'd out, please feel free to provide a *visible* example of your thoughts... > > <mike > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Oliver Andrich wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:44:19 +0200 > > From: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de> > > To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> > > Cc: announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org, webmaster@postgreSQL.org > > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > > > Hi, > > > > ok I am new to PostgreSQL and my mirror of the PostgreSQL pages is quite new, > > but I have to comment on this webpage design. I am not sure on what machines > > you work or what resolutions your display provides, but on my machine the page > > uses only 1/2 of the possible space in the web browser and it is really ugly > > to read the manuals in 16 line frame. Isn't it possible to design the frameset > > in a more flexible way? The fixed heights of the individual rows are really, > > really ugly. > > > > How about defining the top level frameset as <frameset border=0 frameborder=no > > rows="120,*,10%"> or so. Mixing fixed values, wildcards and percentage values > > is really bad style, but this is just a hint. And may be we should think about > > displaying the elephant besides the logo, cause it wastes a lot of valuable > > place in the middle frame. > > > > Just my $0.02. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Oliver Andrich > > > > On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 04:48:29PM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > > > The new web pages are now online. All new look. All new feel. All new > > > logos. All new................. > > > > > > Vince. > > > -- > > > ========================================================================== > > > Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null > > > # include <std/disclaimers.h> TEAM-OS2 > > > Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com > > > Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com > > > ========================================================================== > > > > > > > > -- > > Oliver Andrich, RZ-Online, Schlossstrasse Str. 42, D-56068 Koblenz > > Telefon: +49-261-39210-40 Fax: -33 | http://rhein-zeitung.de > > | http://andrich.net > > GMC d- s++:++ a- C++ UL++++ P-- L+++ E--- W++ N+ w-- O- M-- > > V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP+ t 5+ X R+ tv+ b++ DI++ D- G e h- r z+ > > > > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
Did you go look at the two *visible* examples I gave of an alternative design? Since my graphic design skills are minimal, and the PostGreSQL pages has display nearly *all* the problems associated with vanity sites whose goal is to show off the graphic designers ability and not provide information, I figured there wasn't much point, as I'd provide a nice, simple site that loaded fast and displayed the information in a readable form on pretty much any browser. Since you whined about it, though - I did a quick front page mockup. On the way I fixed the badly broken HTML by adding a TITLE, making sure the image had an ALT tag so those who are using non-graphical browsers, have images disabled, or have vision problems can see them, fixed a typo in an anchor tag (may have introduced that one myself - I can't check the original now), ditched the more egregious of the formatting cruft, and in general made the HTML legal. If you really want to see it, it's at <URL: http://www.phone.net/home/mwm/postgresql.html >. It's not pretty - but it can be bookmarked, and shows up sane in history lists, and I can use it on my cell phone, none of which is true of either old site. Interesting - the old site is back. It still has the frames (which, as a number of people have pointed out, are problematical), and I suspect the HTML is as broken as it was before, but haven't checked. <mike On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:19:16 -0300 (ADT) > From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> > To: Mike Meyer <mwm@phone.net> > Cc: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org,webmaster@postgreSQL.org > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > How about ditching the frames entirely? Not only are they > > problematical from a UI perspective, they're now passe. See <URL: > > http://www.python.org/ > or <URL: http://www.freebsd.org/ > for a more > > modern design. > > > > Of course, pages that put everything in a table to do layout load slow > > and tend to come out ugly on anything that isn't pretty much a clone > > of the designers system, but they beat frames hollow. > > Ya know what I'm finding really passe? Ppl that come up with these > critisms but really don't present an alternative? I personally like the > frames...I like not having to reload everything when only one piece > changes...I thnk it *looks* nice... > > Of course, if you have a better idea of how the site should be lay'd out, > please feel free to provide a *visible* example of your thoughts... > > > > > <mike > > > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Oliver Andrich wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:44:19 +0200 > > > From: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de> > > > To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> > > > Cc: announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org, webmaster@postgreSQL.org > > > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > ok I am new to PostgreSQL and my mirror of the PostgreSQL pages is quite new, > > > but I have to comment on this webpage design. I am not sure on what machines > > > you work or what resolutions your display provides, but on my machine the page > > > uses only 1/2 of the possible space in the web browser and it is really ugly > > > to read the manuals in 16 line frame. Isn't it possible to design the frameset > > > in a more flexible way? The fixed heights of the individual rows are really, > > > really ugly. > > > > > > How about defining the top level frameset as <frameset border=0 frameborder=no > > > rows="120,*,10%"> or so. Mixing fixed values, wildcards and percentage values > > > is really bad style, but this is just a hint. And may be we should think about > > > displaying the elephant besides the logo, cause it wastes a lot of valuable > > > place in the middle frame. > > > > > > Just my $0.02. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Oliver Andrich > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 04:48:29PM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > > > > > The new web pages are now online. All new look. All new feel. All new > > > > logos. All new................. > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > > -- > > > > ========================================================================== > > > > Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null > > > > # include <std/disclaimers.h> TEAM-OS2 > > > > Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com > > > > Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com > > > > ========================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Oliver Andrich, RZ-Online, Schlossstrasse Str. 42, D-56068 Koblenz > > > Telefon: +49-261-39210-40 Fax: -33 | http://rhein-zeitung.de > > > | http://andrich.net > > > GMC d- s++:++ a- C++ UL++++ P-- L+++ E--- W++ N+ w-- O- M-- > > > V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP+ t 5+ X R+ tv+ b++ DI++ D- G e h- r z+ > > > > > > > > > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > >
Sorry Mike, but ... if we wanted boring, we'd be still running a gopher server :( When Vince and gang started working on revamping the site, I asked for but one thing...something that was visually appealling, and, IMHO, that is what they provided. What you show as an example below is more suited, IMHO, to a gopher site then a WWW site. I wasn't looking for 101 graphics to slow down download, only something that didn't put me to sleep mentally looking at it... I believe that Vince and gang has succeeded in doing that, and, with some of the more constructive critism's that I've seen come throgh on how to improve the frames, I personally feel that they are doing a good job maintaining and improving the site... On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Mike Meyer wrote: > Did you go look at the two *visible* examples I gave of an alternative > design? > > Since my graphic design skills are minimal, and the PostGreSQL pages > has display nearly *all* the problems associated with vanity sites > whose goal is to show off the graphic designers ability and not > provide information, I figured there wasn't much point, as I'd provide > a nice, simple site that loaded fast and displayed the information in > a readable form on pretty much any browser. > > Since you whined about it, though - I did a quick front page > mockup. On the way I fixed the badly broken HTML by adding a TITLE, > making sure the image had an ALT tag so those who are using > non-graphical browsers, have images disabled, or have vision problems > can see them, fixed a typo in an anchor tag (may have introduced that > one myself - I can't check the original now), ditched the more > egregious of the formatting cruft, and in general made the HTML legal. > > If you really want to see it, it's at <URL: > http://www.phone.net/home/mwm/postgresql.html >. It's not pretty - but > it can be bookmarked, and shows up sane in history lists, and I can > use it on my cell phone, none of which is true of either old site. > > Interesting - the old site is back. It still has the frames (which, as > a number of people have pointed out, are problematical), and I suspect > the HTML is as broken as it was before, but haven't checked. > > <mike > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:19:16 -0300 (ADT) > > From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> > > To: Mike Meyer <mwm@phone.net> > > Cc: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, > announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org, webmaster@postgreSQL.org > > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > > How about ditching the frames entirely? Not only are they > > > problematical from a UI perspective, they're now passe. See <URL: > > > http://www.python.org/ > or <URL: http://www.freebsd.org/ > for a more > > > modern design. > > > > > > Of course, pages that put everything in a table to do layout load slow > > > and tend to come out ugly on anything that isn't pretty much a clone > > > of the designers system, but they beat frames hollow. > > > > Ya know what I'm finding really passe? Ppl that come up with these > > critisms but really don't present an alternative? I personally like the > > frames...I like not having to reload everything when only one piece > > changes...I thnk it *looks* nice... > > > > Of course, if you have a better idea of how the site should be lay'd out, > > please feel free to provide a *visible* example of your thoughts... > > > > > > > > <mike > > > > > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Oliver Andrich wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:44:19 +0200 > > > > From: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de> > > > > To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> > > > > Cc: announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org, webmaster@postgreSQL.org > > > > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > ok I am new to PostgreSQL and my mirror of the PostgreSQL pages is quite new, > > > > but I have to comment on this webpage design. I am not sure on what machines > > > > you work or what resolutions your display provides, but on my machine the page > > > > uses only 1/2 of the possible space in the web browser and it is really ugly > > > > to read the manuals in 16 line frame. Isn't it possible to design the frameset > > > > in a more flexible way? The fixed heights of the individual rows are really, > > > > really ugly. > > > > > > > > How about defining the top level frameset as <frameset border=0 frameborder=no > > > > rows="120,*,10%"> or so. Mixing fixed values, wildcards and percentage values > > > > is really bad style, but this is just a hint. And may be we should think about > > > > displaying the elephant besides the logo, cause it wastes a lot of valuable > > > > place in the middle frame. > > > > > > > > Just my $0.02. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Oliver Andrich > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 04:48:29PM -0400, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The new web pages are now online. All new look. All new feel. All new > > > > > logos. All new................. > > > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > > > -- > > > > > ========================================================================== > > > > > Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null > > > > > # include <std/disclaimers.h> TEAM-OS2 > > > > > Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com > > > > > Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com > > > > > ========================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oliver Andrich, RZ-Online, Schlossstrasse Str. 42, D-56068 Koblenz > > > > Telefon: +49-261-39210-40 Fax: -33 | http://rhein-zeitung.de > > > > | http://andrich.net > > > > GMC d- s++:++ a- C++ UL++++ P-- L+++ E--- W++ N+ w-- O- M-- > > > > V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP+ t 5+ X R+ tv+ b++ DI++ D- G e h- r z+ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:11:52 -0300 (ADT) > From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> > To: Mike Meyer <mwm@phone.net> > Cc: Oliver Andrich <olli@rhein-zeitung.de>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, announce@postgreSQL.org, hackers@postgreSQL.org,webmaster@postgreSQL.org > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Webpages Online > > > Sorry Mike, but ... if we wanted boring, we'd be still running a gopher > server :( When Vince and gang started working on revamping the site, I > asked for but one thing...something that was visually appealling, and, > IMHO, that is what they provided. I *expected* that reaction. I do informative and readable, not visually appealing. Have you looked at the FreeBSD and Python sites I provided a pointer to yet? Both of them are more visually appealling than what I did, while at the same time being *much* more usable than the two variations on the PostGreSQL site. <mike
I want to say that (most of the times) when I visit a WWW site, especially a site about software (e.g. PostgreSQL), then I want to get valuable information and not want to see nice pictures! So, the example sites Mike Meyer has told are good examples in this sense, because you get many links to important themes on the first (main) page (and some news). The contents of information of a WWW site and quick paths (links) to these informations is very much more improtant for me than the graphical design! Just one or to clicks on links to get the information I need! I often see pages well designed from a graphical view but otherwise not very practial to use or to read (small fonts, unreadable colors, etc.). I personally hate frames because the are very unhandy in setting bookmarks and navigation. Better use other methodes! Best regards Edgar Hoch
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Sorry Mike, but ... if we wanted boring, we'd be still running a gopher > server :( When Vince and gang started working on revamping the site, I > asked for but one thing...something that was visually appealling, and, > IMHO, that is what they provided. > > What you show as an example below is more suited, IMHO, to a gopher site > then a WWW site. I wasn't looking for 101 graphics to slow down download, > only something that didn't put me to sleep mentally looking at it... > > I believe that Vince and gang has succeeded in doing that, and, with some > of the more constructive critism's that I've seen come throgh on how to > improve the frames, I personally feel that they are doing a good job > maintaining and improving the site... If the choice of site design is going to be based on your personal opinion then could we please stop this thread now. It is a rare occurance indeed for a someone's tastes to change based on other people's arguments. If the goal is to solicit feedback from the postgresql community, then accept the comments and give them equal weight to your own. Otherwise we're back to personal taste. Either way, you should decide if you want feedback or not and let people know. It's nice to only want positive feedback but it rarely comes that way. -- Amos Hayes ahayes@polkaroo.net Ingenia Group - Software Kinetics Ltd. http://polkaroo.net/~ahayes http://www.sofkin.ca
[huge *snip*] Shouldn't this discussion be moved off from <announce@postgreSQL.org>? I had the impression this was a moderated list, for announcements only. (PS. the seemingly automatically-posted "Database entry:" posts seem to have quietened down, thankfully...) -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.rug.nl> [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ Proteon Software <t.hageman@proteon.nl>(work)__/__/__/ __/ _/_/ "Stupid, stupid rat creatures!"