Thread: WebGUI vote on whether to drop PostgreSQL support
WebGUI is a great content management system written in Perl that supports MySQL and PostgreSQL. They are intending to drop PostgreSQL support. I and some others kicked up a fuss about this, so they have put it to the vote. If you are interested in WebGUI and would like to vote one way or the other <g>, please visit http://www.plainblack.com. Thanks. PS. Feel free to forward this elsewhere if you know people who are or might be interested in using a CMS like WebGUI. -- JEREMY MALCOLM <Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au> Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger.
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If they do drop support, I suggest switching to Bricolage... Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Malcolm" <Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au> To: <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: [pgsql-advocacy] WebGUI vote on whether to drop PostgreSQL support WebGUI is a great content management system written in Perl that supports MySQL and PostgreSQL. They are intending to drop PostgreSQL support. I and some others kicked up a fuss about this, so they have put it to the vote. If you are interested in WebGUI and would like to vote one way or the other <g>, please visit http://www.plainblack.com. Thanks. PS. Feel free to forward this elsewhere if you know people who are or might be interested in using a CMS like WebGUI. -- JEREMY MALCOLM <Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au> Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger.
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > If they do drop support, I suggest switching to Bricolage... I hate to say it, but that is kinda my opinion also ... Bricolage I've heard alot about ... never heard of WebGUI :( > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeremy Malcolm" <Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au> > To: <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:18 AM > Subject: [pgsql-advocacy] WebGUI vote on whether to drop PostgreSQL support > > WebGUI is a great content management system written in Perl that > supports MySQL and PostgreSQL. They are intending to drop PostgreSQL > support. I and some others kicked up a fuss about this, so they have > put it to the vote. If you are interested in WebGUI and would like to > vote one way or the other <g>, please visit http://www.plainblack.com. > > Thanks. > > PS. Feel free to forward this elsewhere if you know people who are or > might be interested in using a CMS like WebGUI. > > -- > JEREMY MALCOLM <Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au> Personal: http://www.malcolm.id.au > Providing online networks of Australian lawyers (http://www.ilaw.com.au) > and Linux experts (http://www.linuxconsultants.com.au) for instant help! > Disclaimer: http://www.terminus.net.au/disclaimer.html. GPG key: finger. > > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
From WebGui web site We have chosen MySQL because it is used by the majority of the WebGUI users already, because it is easier to administer than Postgres, and because it works equally well on all platforms, unlike Postgres. I thought that the last one was PostgreSQL-s benefit? Kaarel
<blockquote cite="mid20030730003347.C17191@hub.org" type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">If they do drop support,I suggest switching to Bricolage... </pre></blockquote><pre wrap=""> I hate to say it, but that is kinda my opinion also ... Bricolage I've heard alot about ... never heard of WebGUI :( </pre></blockquote><br /> I haven't heard of any of them and probably won'tuse them either but deciding solely on web sites I'd choose WebGUI. Screenshots of WebGUI are more attracktive thanscreenshots of Bricolage (look does matter), WebGUI's website looks slicker and they claim several fortune 500 companiesusing their product and they have a big list of (all?) companies using their product.<br /><br /> The point being:if you want many people to use your product you have to pay attention to marketing. At the very least have a decentweb site!<br /><br /> Kaarel<br />
How is this any different to Bricolage? And how can it be better if it doesn't have any referential integrity!!! Chris --------- I haven't heard of any of them and probably won't use them either but deciding solely on web sites I'd choose WebGUI. Screenshots of WebGUI are more attracktive than screenshots of Bricolage (look does matter), WebGUI's website looks slicker and they claim several fortune 500 companies using their product and they have a big list of (all?) companies using their product. The point being: if you want many people to use your product you have to pay attention to marketing. At the very least have a decent web site! Kaarel
>
>
>How is this any different to Bricolage?
>
>And how can it be better if it doesn't have any referential integrity!!!
>
I mean no offence at all. I don't know which of the two is better. It's
just that a lot of open source projects don't pay much attention to
design/look/marketing. It's not a problem for everybody as not everybody
is after a large user base.
Imagine you have two objects. You have to choose between them. One looks
ok, the other looks good. Which object you choose? The one that look
good of course. When I was to look for a CMS solution, then WebGUI would
give me a better first expression. And if I happen to be one of the
people thinking:
<quote from mysql mail list>
While foreign keys, cascades and built-in transactions are
convenient, atomicity and referential integrity are readily attained by
proper implementation and the appropriate code.
<soap box>
Setting buffers,dirty flags and commit functions really is the
responsibility of the application programmer. A lack of referential
integrity is not the same as data corruption. More creative coding
and less whining.
</soap box>
</quote from mysql mail list>
then I drop Bricolage before getting into the details.
Or take mozilla.org as an example. I don't say that with better looking
web site Mozilla would have significantly more users. But the old web
page was just ugly. It had good content so it works for the geeks but
you don't attrackt casual computer users with this. The new web page has
the same content, but it also features a lot of pictures and colors. It
is a much more attracktive web site now. So these people who before
quickly left www.mozilla.org because it didn't look like it, now will at
least spend a little more time and perhaps even read some content.
Kaarel
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 10:01:46AM +0300, Kaarel wrote: > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:01:46 +0300 > From: Kaarel <kaarel@future.ee> > To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] WebGUI vote on whether to drop PostgreSQL support > > From WebGui web site > > We have chosen MySQL because it is used by the majority of the WebGUI > users already, because it is easier to administer than Postgres, and > because it works equally well on all platforms, unlike Postgres. > > I thought that the last one was PostgreSQL-s benefit? > > Kaarel > I find this type of spin from the WebGUI people interesting. they show a lack of understanding of the issues, clearly, and are using the MySQL brand to promote their software. it is written the way it is because it will get the attention of us, the pg people, and we will be "up in arms" about the "drop" of pg, etc. I say, let them-- who needs people that are willing to use spin as a marketing tool? regards, J -- || Jeff - http://zoidtechnologies.com/ || GNUPG Fingerprint: A607 0F19 7C75 1305 67E4 BDFF 26BD 606E 3517 2A42
On Wednesday 30 July 2003 09:01, Kaarel wrote: > We have chosen MySQL because it is used by the majority of the WebGUI > users already, because it is easier to administer than Postgres, and > because it works equally well on all platforms, unlike Postgres. This is called a portfolio effect. Unless we release PostgreSQL, pgAdmin3, PhpPgAdmin3 bundled under Win32 and Unixes, we will always face this kind of problem. User ask questions such as "is PostgreSQL faster than MySQL?", but in fact their real need is a database system with a nice administration interface (web or GUI), which works under any environment (Unixes and Win32). Cheers, Jean-Michel Pouré
>This is called a portfolio effect. Unless we release PostgreSQL, pgAdmin3, >PhpPgAdmin3 bundled under Win32 and Unixes, we will always face this kind of >problem. > >User ask questions such as "is PostgreSQL faster than MySQL?", but in fact >their real need is a database system with a nice administration interface >(web or GUI), which works under any environment (Unixes and Win32). > > I quite agree here. It would be nice to bundle a graphical user interface with the upcoming 7.5 and native windows port. Which GUI-s to bundle will have to be discussed but it is clear that only one or two (one local gui and one web gui) can be included. Otherwise it wouldn't have the desired effect. Kaarel
On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 03:01, Kaarel wrote:
> From WebGui web site
>
> We have chosen MySQL because it is used by the majority of the WebGUI
> users already, because it is easier to administer than Postgres, and
> because it works equally well on all platforms, unlike Postgres.
>
> I thought that the last one was PostgreSQL-s benefit?
>
They define all platforms as "linux" and "windows".
The most ironic thing I saw in their postings was that they didn't need
all of the features that postgresql offers to run webgui ("it's mostly
simple selects") but they also want to start putting more logic into the
database (which should make postgresql the clear winner imo). You'll
notice that dropping mysql for postgresql was never a consideration,
even though it would offer them a technically superior product, and
possibly increase their services offered to include postgresql setup.
I'd like for them to keep supporting postgresql, but I think the point
is that the core WebGUI developers are anti-postgresql, and knowing that
fact, I don't know why you would want to stick with their product. They
are not going to offer the best technical solution, and their not going
to offer the best support for your platform, it's time to fork or move
on.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: > How is this any different to Bricolage? > > And how can it be better if it doesn't have any referential integrity!!! You say that like data is important or something. :-) Speed man, Speed. It's all that matters, just ask the folks at MySQL and WebGUI...
> > And how can it be better if it doesn't have any referential integrity!!! > > You say that like data is important or something. :-) Speed man, Speed. > It's all that matters, just ask the folks at MySQL and WebGUI... Yeah.. Raw speed -- who cares how slow the actual application code needs to be as it tries to implement that stuff itself. Client side rollbacks without server help are NOT fast. Been there, done that.
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> > And how can it be better if it doesn't have any referential integrity!!! > > You say that like data is important or something. :-) Speed man, Speed. > It's all that matters, just ask the folks at MySQL and WebGUI... Yeah.. Raw speed -- who cares how slow the actual application code needs to be as it tries to implement that stuff itself. Client side rollbacks without server help are NOT fast. Been there, done that.
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Guys, > WebGUI is a great content management system written in Perl that > supports MySQL and PostgreSQL. They are intending to drop PostgreSQL > support. I and some others kicked up a fuss about this, so they have > put it to the vote. If you are interested in WebGUI and would like to > vote one way or the other <g>, please visit http://www.plainblack.com. *shrug* Unfortunately, I think we're coming into this one too late to do any good. All of the "MySQL-specific" features which they mention are available in PostgreSQL, and some of them work better on Postgres than MySQL. I believe that the WebGUI developers know this and are simply looking for excuses. (and, I might add, I've never heard of WebGUI before despite doing a prolonged internet search for CMSes for Techdocs) For that matter, if their concern was really using database-specific functionality, then it would be quite feasable in Perl to write your own DBI wrapper which would re-interpret commands depending on the database being accessed, for example writing a paginate() method for the first issue they mention. The fact that the WebGUI developers have not done this already really makes me question the quality of their project's code. Jeremy, as it seems that you are already a WebGUI user, I'd suggest that you are welcome to tilt at this particular windmill; but keep in mind that if the core developers have a cozy relationship with MySQL AB, then technical considerations are not the real argument. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Wednesday 30 July 2003 15:52, Robert Treat wrote: > I'd like for them to keep supporting postgresql, but I think the point > is that the core WebGUI developers are anti-postgresql I don't know, but I can guess there are several other reasons: 1) Web hosting WebGUI developers earn some money selling WebGUI web space. Maybe they changed web hosting companies and own a shared server with only MySQL installed. Or they do not have PhpPgAdmin 3.0 installed and don't know how to run queries remotely in psql using ssh. This can be such a stupid reason, who knows? 2) Windows MySQL success is ***only*** due to its bundling with PHP and its availability under Windows. Strangely, in Php interactive documentation, I noticed most users were running Windows + Php + MySQL. Maybe WebGUI developers use Windows stations for development and were not able to install PostgreSQL using Cygwin. This can be such a stupid reason, who knows? On the other hand, people can get educated very quickly. For example, Dave and I come from a Windows world. Can you believe it? Now, when I look back at a Win32 station and compare it to a recent GNU/Linux distribution, the Win32 station looks more or less like a game for children. I own five Windows licences and have only one installed, running now and then. That's the power of PostgreSQL. If we accept our differences and offer packaged solutions including several products, targeted at both Unixes and Win32, the world of database can change dramatically. And users will get more educated. There is reason for hope. 20 million dollars will not change the world. By 2040, India will have 1.6 billion inhabitants. Do you really think they will be using MySQL and Ms Windows... Ahhhhhh!!!!!! Cheers, Jean-Michel