Thread: SAP and MySQL to cooperate (?!)
Heise [*] is reporting that SAP and MySQL are forming a partnership with the aim of creating a database server product based on MySQL and SAP-DB. The report indicates MySQL will do the development over a period of several years. The report (in German, haven't seen any other sources) is here: http://heise.de/newsticker/data/hps-23.05.03-000/ It also says the existing SAP-DB will be rebranded "MySQL". Babelfish says: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fheise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fdata%2Fhps-23.05.03-000%2F&lp=de_en&tt=url ("barrier village" is babelfish's rendering of the place name Walldorf, where SAP is located). (BTW here in Germany it is no longer April 1st ;-) Ian Barwick barwick@gmx.net
Le Vendredi 23 Mai 2003 18:11, Ian Barwick a écrit : > Heise [*] is reporting that SAP and MySQL are forming a partnership > with the aim of creating a database server product based on > MySQL and SAP-DB. The report indicates MySQL will do the development > over a period of several years. Strange idea. MySQL and SAP-DB are completely different products in design. Maybe SAP-DB is dropping development of its database and wants MySQL team to take care of maintaining the database for current users. Jean-Michel
On Saturday 24 May 2003 09:02, Jean-Michel POURE wrote: > Le Vendredi 23 Mai 2003 18:11, Ian Barwick a écrit : > > Heise [*] is reporting that SAP and MySQL are forming a partnership > > with the aim of creating a database server product based on > > MySQL and SAP-DB. The report indicates MySQL will do the development > > over a period of several years. Slashdot has picked this up too: http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/03/05/23/1826202.shtml?tid=137&tid=198 > Strange idea. MySQL and SAP-DB are completely different products in design. > Maybe SAP-DB is dropping development of its database and wants MySQL team > to take care of maintaining the database for current users. The power of MySQL combined with the user-friendlyness of SAP-DB? ;-) Ian Barwick barwick@gmx.net
Hi,
On Sat, 24 May 2003, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> Le Vendredi 23 Mai 2003 18:11, Ian Barwick a écrit :
> > Heise [*] is reporting that SAP and MySQL are forming a partnership
> > with the aim of creating a database server product based on
> > MySQL and SAP-DB. The report indicates MySQL will do the development
> > over a period of several years.
>
> Strange idea. MySQL and SAP-DB are completely different products in design.
> Maybe SAP-DB is dropping development of its database and wants MySQL team to
> take care of maintaining the database for current users.
I think it's all about a marketting move. I don't imagine how SAP
DB and MySQL could be "merged", and developing a new system from scratch
doesn't seem to be plausible. I don't expect much from this at least in
short/mid-term (regarding software, not media hype). Anyway, in two or
three years we may se a new database that possibly will do what PostgreSQL
does now and have been doing for a long time.
[]s
Ricardo.
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, 24 May 2003, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
>
> > Le Vendredi 23 Mai 2003 18:11, Ian Barwick a =E9crit :
> > > Heise [*] is reporting that SAP and MySQL are forming a partnership
> > > with the aim of creating a database server product based on
> > > MySQL and SAP-DB. The report indicates MySQL will do the development
> > > over a period of several years.
> >
> > Strange idea. MySQL and SAP-DB are completely different products in desig=
> n.
> > Maybe SAP-DB is dropping development of its database and wants MySQL team=
> to
> > take care of maintaining the database for current users.
>
> I think it's all about a marketting move. I don't imagine how SAP
> DB and MySQL could be "merged", and developing a new system from scratch
> doesn't seem to be plausible. I don't expect much from this at least in
> short/mid-term (regarding software, not media hype). Anyway, in two or
> three years we may se a new database that possibly will do what PostgreSQL
> does now and have been doing for a long time.
Having attempted to compile SAP-DB code once or twice, I have to agree.
The seeming "merit" of the merger, to me, would be the notion of some people
outside SAP AG taking a look at SAP-DB code with a view to:
a) Using tools like autoconf to hook in the notion of portability, and
b) Redoing the build using Make (instead of their own peculiar tools).
Those are serious barriers to wide-spread deployment, as they make it really
inconvenient to deploy SAP-DB on any platform that SAP AG doesn't directly
build for.
But if it truly is a large-scope "modifying SAP-DB to become
MySQL-The-Next-Generation" project, it will have a hugely disruptive effect on
the states of both MySQL and SAP-DB "production" development.
The attempts to get Win32 support have been _somewhat_ disruptive for
PostgreSQL; this "MySAP-DB project" would be a multi-year one that would be
vastly more disruptive. It's more along the lines of a "we'll be integrating
in thread support plus Win32 plus syntax emulators for all of Informix, DB/2,
MySQL, and Oracle."
We should be inclined to encourage the project :-); the merits for PostgreSQL
are several:
- There's a fairly high chance of failure, with the potential to damage
reputation for both companies and both DBMSes
- The disruption would allow PostgreSQL to "look more stable." (I'm speaking
politically, not technically...)
- The disruption would scare some people off of MySQL
- If PostgreSQL development progresses steadily, in the interim, perceived
disadvantages might get more directly dealt with.
- Recent versions of MySQL are getting more disk and memory hungry than
PostgreSQL. I don't imagine SAP-DB integration is likely to _diminish_ this...
- If we see steady progress over two years, that's time for a LOT of
functionality to appear before there's much more than some flakey "betas" of
"MySAP-DB".
There should be lots of smileys throughout :-), but I'm not making completely
spurious jokes here; there is some reality to each of the points...
--
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Le Samedi 24 Mai 2003 09:53, Ricardo Ryoiti S. Junior a écrit : > I think it's all about a marketting move. I don't imagine how SAP > DB and MySQL could be "merged", and developing a new system from scratch > doesn't seem to be plausible. I don't expect much from this at least in > short/mid-term (regarding software, not media hype). Anyway, in two or > three years we may se a new database that possibly will do what PostgreSQL > does now and have been doing for a long time. Agreed. MySQL will not merge with SAP-DB. Legaly, SAP needs to maitain installed SAP DB databases. Calling SAP BD the next "MySQL version x" will allow SAP to drop SAP DB silently. In other words, SAP DB strory may be over. Why do companies try to pretend things? What is the advantage of releasing false information? Now, I have come to the point where I can hardly believe press anoucements of commercial products. On the long run, it can only destroy the marketing image of both products. Furthermore, SAP-DB story shows the importance of the notion of "community". A Free Software project cannot survive without a real community of developpers. MySQL is now coming to a cross-road : they can continue owning MySQL completely without external contribution, or start building a community with real CVS access and shared responsabilities. Cheers, Jean-Michel -> Please note this email is the expression of my own opinion, which people may or may not share.
On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 06:56, Jean-Michel POURE wrote: > Le Samedi 24 Mai 2003 09:53, Ricardo Ryoiti S. Junior a écrit : > > I think it's all about a marketting move. I don't imagine how SAP > > DB and MySQL could be "merged", and developing a new system from scratch > > doesn't seem to be plausible. I don't expect much from this at least in > > short/mid-term (regarding software, not media hype). Anyway, in two or > > three years we may se a new database that possibly will do what PostgreSQL > > does now and have been doing for a long time. > > Agreed. MySQL will not merge with SAP-DB. > > Legaly, SAP needs to maitain installed SAP DB databases. Calling SAP BD the > next "MySQL version x" will allow SAP to drop SAP DB silently. In other > words, SAP DB strory may be over. > <snip> > Furthermore, SAP-DB story shows the importance of the notion of "community". A > Free Software project cannot survive without a real community of developpers. > It will be interesting to see what happens to the sap-db open source community, since ISTM they will be losing a lot of their corporate backing. You have to figure sap db will stop development of sap-db pretty soon, which means the community of developers that are involved will probably have to fork the code to keep working on it. While a strong commercial stewardship can work wonders for an open source project, theres no doubt that it can also be the death knell when the companies aspirations change. Still, I'd welcome any sap-db who want to join the postgresql project which can offer some solace in that it is not beholden to any one company. > MySQL is now coming to a cross-road : they can continue owning MySQL > completely without external contribution, or start building a community with > real CVS access and shared responsabilities. > So what is the future of INNO-DB? Doesn't this screw the folks developing that table type? Will mysql really put forth the effort to develop two "real" database engines? Seems unlikely to me. I guess I'd also like to extend a welcome for those who are using INNO-DB and realize they too may be on the short end of things in the not too distant future... Robert Treat
I spent some time looking at the SAP docs and found that they took a page from the big players and were somewhat evasive. There is no feature matrix, and no (meaningful) technical summary. Can anybody provide a brief rundown of what it can do? What kind of interfaces does it support? Merlin
Robert Treat wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 06:56, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> > Le Samedi 24 Mai 2003 09:53, Ricardo Ryoiti S. Junior a =E9crit :
> > > I think it's all about a marketting move. I don't imagine how SAP
> > > DB and MySQL could be "merged", and developing a new system from scratch
> > > doesn't seem to be plausible. I don't expect much from this at least in
> > > short/mid-term (regarding software, not media hype). Anyway, in two or
> > > three years we may se a new database that possibly will do what Postgre=
> SQL
> > > does now and have been doing for a long time.
> >=20
> > Agreed. MySQL will not merge with SAP-DB.
> >=20
> > Legaly, SAP needs to maitain installed SAP DB databases. Calling SAP BD t=
> he=20
> > next "MySQL version x" will allow SAP to drop SAP DB silently. In other=
> =20
> > words, SAP DB strory may be over.
> >=20
> <snip>
> > Furthermore, SAP-DB story shows the importance of the notion of "communit=
> y". A=20
> > Free Software project cannot survive without a real community of developp=
> ers.
> >=20
>
> It will be interesting to see what happens to the sap-db open source
> community, since ISTM they will be losing a lot of their corporate
> backing. You have to figure sap db will stop development of sap-db
> pretty soon, which means the community of developers that are involved
> will probably have to fork the code to keep working on it. While a
> strong commercial stewardship can work wonders for an open source
> project, theres no doubt that it can also be the death knell when the
> companies aspirations change. Still, I'd welcome any sap-db who want
> to join the postgresql project which can offer some solace in that it
> is not beholden to any one company.
It sure as though development contributions from SAP will be coming to
an end. If the code base were "more approachable," there would be the
possibility of someone else taking it on. But this code appears scarier
than Mozilla was, and it seems unlikely that anyone will want to use it
without being *intensely* committed to it.
>> MySQL is now coming to a cross-road : they can continue owning MySQL
>> completely without external contribution, or start building a
>> community with real CVS access and shared responsabilities.
> So what is the future of INNO-DB? Doesn't this screw the folks
> developing that table type? Will mysql really put forth the effort to
> develop two "real" database engines? Seems unlikely to me. I guess I'd
> also like to extend a welcome for those who are using INNO-DB and
> realize they too may be on the short end of things in the not too
> distant future...
I'd think it likely that if the MySQL people truly are interested in
integrating the code together, they would need all the capable hands
they can get, and the "INNO-DB guy" would doubtless be one of them.
But the process, however it shakes out, is sure to lead to a whole lot
of disruption for users of both database systems.
While it is surely an attractive idea, from a "press release"
perspective, to meld together the "popularity on the web" of MySQL with
the much greater functionality of SAP-DB, actually accomplishing this is
not as easy as slapping them onto the same CD and installing it. If the
developers had some really nifty code analysis tools, it *might* be
imaginable that there could be some shortcut to "make it pretty."
But more realistic is the prospect that the "integrating it all in"
project would be as daunting as "porting Mozilla to use GTK+ rather than
Motif," and the result would be that there wouldn't be _usable_ results
from the project for a considerable period of time.
This may represent, for MySQL AB, a case of "shooting themselves in the
foot;" to admit the need to integrate in SAP-DB-like functionality would
be something of an admission of inadequacy. And if it takes a long time
to get to "adequacy," that's a long term "admission of inadequacy." I
doubt that's what they wanted as a marketing plan for selling licenses
to MySQL Pro...
Those that were using SAP-DB aren't likely to wait for that project to
complete, what with the fairly massive risks.
I would expect them to leap three ways:
-> Those that were feeling a bit "iffy" about the whole "open source"
thing are likely to head back to Oracle or DB/2;
-> Some will doubtless knock on Interbase/Firebird's door;
-> Some will probably come looking at what PostgreSQL has to offer.
A "welcoming approach" would probably involve improving the German
documentation :-).
--
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Le Mardi 27 Mai 2003 17:01, Christopher Browne a écrit : > This may represent, for MySQL AB, a case of "shooting themselves in the > foot;" to admit the need to integrate in SAP-DB-like functionality would > be something of an admission of inadequacy. This news seems so unreal, that we should verify it. Are there announcements on MySQL homepage? I don't see any. Can you read any confirmation on SAP web site? Who would be so silly to drop SAP-DB development and announce it publicly? Cheers, Jean-Michel
on www.sapdb.org ther is an anouncement on that topic I think on monday there will be serveral announces to this topic from SAP and MYSQL!! Ewald Geschwinde Jean-Michel POURE wrote: >Le Mardi 27 Mai 2003 17:01, Christopher Browne a écrit : > > >>This may represent, for MySQL AB, a case of "shooting themselves in the >>foot;" to admit the need to integrate in SAP-DB-like functionality would >>be something of an admission of inadequacy. >> >> > >This news seems so unreal, that we should verify it. Are there announcements >on MySQL homepage? I don't see any. Can you read any confirmation on SAP web >site? > >Who would be so silly to drop SAP-DB development and announce it publicly? > >Cheers, >Jean-Michel > >---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > >http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html > > > >
Le Mardi 27 Mai 2003 17:53, Ewald Geschwinde a écrit : > on www.sapdb.org ther is an anouncement on that topic > I think on monday there will be serveral announces to this topic from > SAP and MYSQL!! > Ewald Geschwinde So they are really dropping SAP-DB. Incredible. Cheers, Jean-Michel
Jean-Michel POURE wrote: >Le Mardi 27 Mai 2003 17:53, Ewald Geschwinde a écrit : > > >>on www.sapdb.org ther is an anouncement on that topic >>I think on monday there will be serveral announces to this topic from >>SAP and MYSQL!! >>Ewald Geschwinde >> >> > >So they are really dropping SAP-DB. Incredible. >Cheers, Jean-Michel > > > > I think the prolem there was, that there was only a small community - was getting larger. And the docs were let's say not really existent in a way someone can learn about it But the fact that sapdb will rebranded to mysql is true. It will happen in september 2003 Ewald
cbbrowne@acm.org wrote: > We should be inclined to encourage the project :-); the merits for > PostgreSQL are several: > - There's a fairly high chance of failure, with the potential to damage > reputation for both companies and both DBMSes > - The disruption would allow PostgreSQL to "look more stable." > (I'm speaking politically, not technically...) > - The disruption would scare some people off of MySQL > - If PostgreSQL development progresses steadily, in the interim, perceived > disadvantages might get more directly dealt with. > - Recent versions of MySQL are getting more disk and memory hungry > than PostgreSQL. I don't imagine SAP-DB integration is likely to > _diminish_ this... > - If we see steady progress over two years, that's time for a LOT of > functionality to appear before there's much more than some flakey > "betas" of "MySAP-DB". > > There should be lots of smileys throughout :-), but I'm not making > completely spurious jokes here; there is some reality to each of the > points... Hmm...I'd rather see PG win on its merits alone rather than as a result of a big management screwup on MySQL's part. Even so, I will say this: MySQL has a much better reputation than I think it deserves, and many people incorrectly believe that it is a full-featured database engine. So I won't mind seeing some of what you speak of, as long as the amount of damage is no more than what's necessary to bring the general view of MySQL back down to a firmly grounded reality. Of course, mistakes made on the MySQL side don't necessarily translate to an easier time for PostgreSQL, and could easily translate to a *harder* time for PostgreSQL depending on whether or not people view those mistakes as typical of the open source world. -- Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com