Re: Is a modern build system acceptable for older platforms - Mailing list pgsql-hackers

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think that unsubstantiated hyperbole is the right way to
> approach the task of convincing the community to adopt the approach
> you prefer.  I don't see that any compelling evidence has been
> presented that a cmake-based solution would really save thousands of
> lines of code.

Let me try to list the advantages as I see them.

* ability to use ninja
  ** meson's requirement to use ninja might be a disadvantage but
ability to use is definitely good
  ** faster than make - the difference is really noticeable
  ** good dependency story, parallel everything
  ** simply a very nice developer experience, for example the screen
is not filled with scrolling lines instead progress updates shown as
x/y files to go, currently at file z; try it and you'll see what I
mean
  ** I got interested in the ninja for PG and therefore CMake or meson
after trying clang-cl.exe for PG on Windows. clang-cl.exe is a drop in
open source replacement for Microsoft's cl.exe but using it does not
interact well with the fact that MSBuild runs only one cl.exe with
lots of .c files as input and expects cl.exe to handle the parallelism
while clang-cl.exe does not handle any parallelism taking the position
that the build system should handle that. Being able to invoke
clang-cl.exe from ninja instead of MSBuild would make fast compilation
with clang-cl.exe easy while now only slow serial compilation is
possible.

* IDE integration:
  ** cmake and meson can generate XCode and Visual Studio, granted
Visual Studio already works via the MSVC scripts
  ** CLion can consume cmake giving a good IDE story on Linux which PG
currently lacks

* get rid of the ad-hoc MSVC generation Perl scripts
  ** granted, I looked at those recently in the clang-cl context above
and they're reasonably understandable/approachable even without
knowing too much Perl

* appeal to new developers
  ** I think it's not a controversial statement that, as time passes,
autotools and make syntax are seen more and more as arcane things that
only old beards know how to handle and that the exciting stuff moved
elsewhere; in the long run this is a real problem
  ** on the other hand, as an autotools almost complete novice, after
reading some autotools docs, I was pleasantly surprised at how small
and easy to follow Andres' build patch adding LLVM and C++ support
was, especially as it's doing big, non conventional changes: add
support for another compiler but in a specific "emit LLVM bitcode"
mode, add support for C++ etc. So autoconf ugliness is not that big of
a deal but perception does matter.

* PGXS on Windows
  ** could be solvable without moving wholesale

From the above, I would rate ninja as a high nice to have, IDE, PGXS
on Windows and new developers as medium high nice to haves (but see
below for long term concerns) and no MSVC Perl scripts as low nice to
have.

I started the thread as it seemed to me energy was consumed to move to
another system (proof of concept and discussions) while it wasn't even
clarified whether a new system isn't a complete no go due to the old
platforms PG supports. I find Tom's and Robert's position of
"acceptable but we would need to see real benefits as there definitely
are real downsides" perfectly reasonable. The build system dictating
platform support would indeed be the tail wagging the dog. Personally,
with the current information I'd not vote for switching to another
system, mainly because I ultimately think developer convenience should
not trump end user benefits.

I do have a real concern about the long term attractiveness of the
project to new developers, especially younger ones as time passes.
It's not a secret that people will just avoid creaky old projects, and
for Postgres old out of fashion things do add up: autoconf, raw make,
Perl for tests, C89, old platform support. I have no doubt that the
project is already loosing competent potential developers due to this.
One can say this is superficial and those developers should look at
the important things but that does not change reality that some will
just say pass because of dislike of the old technologies I mentioned.
Personally, I can say that if the project were still in CVS I would
probably not bother as I just don't have energy to learn an inferior
old version control system especially as I see version control as
fundamental to a developer. I don't feel the balance between
recruiting new developers and end user benefits tilted enough to
replace the build system but maybe in some years that will be the
case.