Thread: One click installer a bit bare?
So, Just for giggles, I downloaded the one click installer for Windows (9.1) today and I was a little disappointed. The installer doesn't make any mention of where to find help, how to subscribe to lists or anything like that? It seems that we should be promoting the community more within the installer. It would be one thing if the installer was hosted under .Org but it is hosted externally with a giant please register and join our developer community (which is the EDB community, not the .Org one). Can we get some community resources a little better represented? JD
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to > take them to support page of .Org? Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then jump straight to support or whatever else they need. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >> >> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >> take them to support page of .Org? > > Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded > to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of > the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final > page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then > jump straight to support or whatever else they need. The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>> >>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>> take them to support page of .Org? >> >> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. > > The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. > > That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). So, which link is preferred? -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. > > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). > > So, which link is preferred? I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is broken.. again..) -- Magnus Hagander Me: http://www.hagander.net/ Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:59 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to > >>>> take them to support page of .Org? > >>> > >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded > >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of > >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final > >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then > >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. > >> > >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. > >> > >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. > > > > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise > > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore > > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). > > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the > > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and > > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). > > > > So, which link is preferred? > > I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot > somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is > broken.. again..) > Guess it is this one: http://www.dalibo.org/_media/articles/winpg84/winpg84_18.jpg from the 8.4 installer. (I have a more current one, but in french unfortunately) -- Guillaume http://blog.guillaume.lelarge.info http://www.dalibo.com
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Guillaume Lelarge <guillaume@lelarge.info> wrote: > On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:59 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >> >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >> >>> >> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >> >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >> >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >> >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >> >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >> >> >> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >> >> >> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. >> > >> > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise >> > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore >> > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). >> > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the >> > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and >> > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). >> > >> > So, which link is preferred? >> >> I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot >> somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is >> broken.. again..) >> > > Guess it is this one: > http://www.dalibo.org/_media/articles/winpg84/winpg84_18.jpg > > from the 8.4 installer. (I have a more current one, but in french > unfortunately) Yeah, though the artwork is somewhat more subtle now. The important stuff on the right is the same. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 16:10, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Guillaume Lelarge > <guillaume@lelarge.info> wrote: >> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:59 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >>> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>> >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>> >>> >>> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>> >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>> >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>> >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>> >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >>> >> >>> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >>> >> >>> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. >>> > >>> > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise >>> > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore >>> > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). >>> > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the >>> > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and >>> > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). >>> > >>> > So, which link is preferred? >>> >>> I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot >>> somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is >>> broken.. again..) >>> >> >> Guess it is this one: >> http://www.dalibo.org/_media/articles/winpg84/winpg84_18.jpg >> >> from the 8.4 installer. (I have a more current one, but in french >> unfortunately) > > Yeah, though the artwork is somewhat more subtle now. The important > stuff on the right is the same. I'd still like to see the whole thing before I comment ;) Even better if it has one of the suggested changed already, but without is fine as well. Otherwise, I'll be happy to leave it to others to comment :D -- Magnus Hagander Me: http://www.hagander.net/ Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 16:10, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Guillaume Lelarge >> <guillaume@lelarge.info> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:59 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: >>>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>>> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >>>> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>>> >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>>> >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>>> >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>>> >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>>> >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>>> >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >>>> >> >>>> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >>>> >> >>>> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. >>>> > >>>> > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise >>>> > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore >>>> > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). >>>> > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the >>>> > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and >>>> > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). >>>> > >>>> > So, which link is preferred? >>>> >>>> I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot >>>> somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is >>>> broken.. again..) >>>> >>> >>> Guess it is this one: >>> http://www.dalibo.org/_media/articles/winpg84/winpg84_18.jpg >>> >>> from the 8.4 installer. (I have a more current one, but in french >>> unfortunately) >> >> Yeah, though the artwork is somewhat more subtle now. The important >> stuff on the right is the same. > > I'd still like to see the whole thing before I comment ;) Even better > if it has one of the suggested changed already, but without is fine as > well. Otherwise, I'll be happy to leave it to others to comment :D We don't have it yet, nor will we for a few days at least I expect. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. > > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). > > So, which link is preferred? OK, if we don't want to put that there, why not add it as a menu item to pgadmin? That way we'll catch people even after they've run installer. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>>> >>>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >>> >>> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >>> >>> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. >> >> We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise >> we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore >> (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). >> There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the >> "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and >> download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). >> >> So, which link is preferred? > > OK, if we don't want to put that there, why not add it as a menu item > to pgadmin? > > That way we'll catch people even after they've run installer. We don't even have the pgAdmin mailing lists on the pgAdmin menus (they're in the Helpfile). I'm not sure I can recall any software that has such links on it's menus, at least not professionally produced products. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:29 AM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > So, > > Just for giggles, I downloaded the one click installer for Windows (9.1) > today and I was a little disappointed. The installer doesn't make any > mention of where to find help, how to subscribe to lists or anything like > that? It seems that we should be promoting the community more within the > installer. There's not a great deal of opportunity to do that well in the installer itself - however the installer does add menu shortcuts to the bundled HTML docs for pgAdmin and PostgreSQL, and an Installation Notes doc which directs people to the mailing lists etc. if they need help. Do you have any suggestions on what we might do better? > It would be one thing if the installer was hosted under .Org but it is > hosted externally with a giant please register and join our developer > community (which is the EDB community, not the .Org one). > > Can we get some community resources a little better represented? I am working on a new design for that page at the moment, following a discussion I had with Ed on that very topic last week. My aim is to do exactly what you suggest. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On 10/04/2011 06:07 AM, Dave Page wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:29 AM, Joshua D. Drake<jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >> >> So, >> >> Just for giggles, I downloaded the one click installer for Windows (9.1) >> today and I was a little disappointed. The installer doesn't make any >> mention of where to find help, how to subscribe to lists or anything like >> that? It seems that we should be promoting the community more within the >> installer. > > There's not a great deal of opportunity to do that well in the > installer itself - however the installer does add menu shortcuts to > the bundled HTML docs for pgAdmin and PostgreSQL, and an Installation > Notes doc which directs people to the mailing lists etc. if they need > help. Do you have any suggestions on what we might do better? It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to take them to support page of .Org? > >> It would be one thing if the installer was hosted under .Org but it is >> hosted externally with a giant please register and join our developer >> community (which is the EDB community, not the .Org one). >> >> Can we get some community resources a little better represented? > > I am working on a new design for that page at the moment, following a > discussion I had with Ed on that very topic last week. My aim is to do > exactly what you suggest. Glad to hear it. JD > > -- Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Support, Training, Professional Services and Development The PostgreSQL Conference - http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ @cmdpromptinc - @postgresconf - 509-416-6579
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 16:10, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Guillaume Lelarge >>> <guillaume@lelarge.info> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:59 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: >>>>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 15:58, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>>>> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: >>>>> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >>>>> >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> It may be minimal, but the last page of the installer could have a button to >>>>> >>>> take them to support page of .Org? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Can't do a button, but the new version of BitRock we've just upgraded >>>>> >>> to (yesterday!) does support hyperlinked labels, so I've asked one of >>>>> >>> the guys to add a "Visit the PostgreSQL Website" link to the final >>>>> >>> page. That seems better than the support page to me, as they can then >>>>> >>> jump straight to support or whatever else they need. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The installer used to ask if people would like to subscribe to announce list. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> That seems a good thing to help us keep in touch with people. >>>>> > >>>>> > We can do that certainly - but I don't want to do both, otherwise >>>>> > we'll end up with too much text on there that people will just ignore >>>>> > (we know from experience this happens with installation wizards). >>>>> > There is already additional text on the page that needs to stay (the >>>>> > "It's complete" text and "Leave this checked to run StackBuilder and >>>>> > download Slony/PostGIS/psqlODBC/Whatever" checkbox). >>>>> > >>>>> > So, which link is preferred? >>>>> >>>>> I have no windows box around atm - can you throw up a screenshot >>>>> somewhere to look at, making it easier to comment? (yes, my VM is >>>>> broken.. again..) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Guess it is this one: >>>> http://www.dalibo.org/_media/articles/winpg84/winpg84_18.jpg >>>> >>>> from the 8.4 installer. (I have a more current one, but in french >>>> unfortunately) >>> >>> Yeah, though the artwork is somewhat more subtle now. The important >>> stuff on the right is the same. >> >> I'd still like to see the whole thing before I comment ;) Even better >> if it has one of the suggested changed already, but without is fine as >> well. Otherwise, I'll be happy to leave it to others to comment :D > > We don't have it yet, nor will we for a few days at least I expect. Tuns out the new feature in Bitrock doesn't work quite as we need anyway, so we're investigating other options. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> OK, if we don't want to put that there, why not add it as a menu item >> to pgadmin? >> >> That way we'll catch people even after they've run installer. > > We don't even have the pgAdmin mailing lists on the pgAdmin menus > (they're in the Helpfile). I'm not sure I can recall any software that > has such links on it's menus, at least not professionally produced > products. ...investigates... pgAdmin has links to the Slony, EDB and EMC websites but nothing to the pgadmin or postgresql websites. Not really sure why that would be and it is something we can do. This is open source software which can be used freely without registration, so this situation is different from most other software which you will already have registered with by the time you use it. What objection is there to giving users an option to sign up to the Announce list? Is there a problem with the Announce list?? -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
[BCC: pgsql-www, To: pgadmin-hackers] On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> OK, if we don't want to put that there, why not add it as a menu item >>> to pgadmin? >>> >>> That way we'll catch people even after they've run installer. >> >> We don't even have the pgAdmin mailing lists on the pgAdmin menus >> (they're in the Helpfile). I'm not sure I can recall any software that >> has such links on it's menus, at least not professionally produced >> products. > > ...investigates... > > pgAdmin has links to the Slony, EDB and EMC websites but nothing to > the pgadmin or postgresql websites. No, it has links to the PostgreSQL, pgAdmin, Slony, PPAS and GPDB online help, which can be either local, or remote. It will try to find local docs, otherwise it'll default back to the websites. Some installers may also pre-configure it to use the local helpfiles they install. Note also that those menu options are just quick links to the help indexes, as you might find on any app. There are also deep links within the product; for example, edit a table on a PostgreSQL database and click the Help button on the dialogue, and you'll be taken to the appropriate doc page in the PG docs wherever pgAdmin thinks they are. > What objection is there to giving users an option to sign up to the > Announce list? Is there a problem with the Announce list?? pgAdmin III has supported multiple distributions of PostgreSQL for almost as long as I can remember (certainly much longer ago than when either you or I started at EDB), not just the community version. One argument against adding such a link is that we should then also add similar ones to the EDB and EMC/Greenplum sites. I also stand by my previous argument, that this is not the sort of thing we should be cluttering the UI's menus with. The more appropriate place for such links is the docs (and I certainly have no objection to improvements there). -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: >> If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable >> depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to >> Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips >> that menu option. > > pgAdmin can connect to multiple database servers at once. Further to > that, one of the basic design rule of GUI applications is that you > don't show and hide menu options on the main menus because it confuses > users (that is only done on the "real" context sensitive menus, which > are accessible elsewhere, in predictable places). pgAdmin's behaviour is already context sensitive. This would be the same. >> I have zero interest in putting options on the menus >> of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people >> that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source >> PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would >> reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. > > Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the > pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The > project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. You misunderstand. I have no interest in showing an EDB or Greenplum user an option to reach the PostgreSQL web site. What private companies do is their own affair, not mine. My interest is in having a PostgreSQL user have access to the PostgreSQL website and announce list. That can be put on the PostgreSQL installer or pgadmin (when included with the PostgreSQL distribution at least). I don't mind which, but it needs to be in at least one of those places. pgAdmin was only suggested because you said putting it on the installer was somehow a problem. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > >>> If we were worried about such clutter, we could enable/disable >>> depending upon the system type you connect to - so if you connect to >>> Greenplum it offers you Greenplum help etc, but if you don't it skips >>> that menu option. >> >> pgAdmin can connect to multiple database servers at once. Further to >> that, one of the basic design rule of GUI applications is that you >> don't show and hide menu options on the main menus because it confuses >> users (that is only done on the "real" context sensitive menus, which >> are accessible elsewhere, in predictable places). > > pgAdmin's behaviour is already context sensitive. This would be the same. Yes, but it doesn't hide out of context options on the main menus, it makes them inactive. That's intentional, as we don't want to the user to be confused by menus that change shape, or have variable numbers of options shown. >>> I have zero interest in putting options on the menus >>> of pgadmin when used with other products, only in making sure people >>> that use open source PostgreSQL get access to the open source >>> PostgreSQL web site. Call it context-sensitive menus. That would >>> reduce menu clutter by 2 items - in all cases. >> >> Just because you have zero interest in it, it doesn't mean that the >> pgAdmin developers or other users have zero interest in it. The >> project has always taken pride in supporting forks of Postgres. > > You misunderstand. I have no interest in showing an EDB or Greenplum > user an option to reach the PostgreSQL web site. What private > companies do is their own affair, not mine. > > My interest is in having a PostgreSQL user have access to the > PostgreSQL website and announce list. That can be put on the > PostgreSQL installer or pgadmin (when included with the PostgreSQL > distribution at least). I don't mind which, but it needs to be in at > least one of those places. Aside from my other objections, PR (in that sense at least) is really not the job of pgAdmin. It is there to help you manage your databases, not to get you subscribed to an announcement mailing list. I'm sure if you tried to get a similar feature added to psql you would meet with similar resistance to the idea. > pgAdmin was only suggested because you said putting it on the > installer was somehow a problem. Putting 2 such options on the installer is a potentially problem because it clutters the UI which we know causes users to ignore things or misread them. Keeping installers simple and to the point is a key part of the user experience - that was one of the reasons the old installers we such a nightmare for people to use; there was approaching 100 config options to choose from when you ran them! Putting one option there will, I am certain, be fine from a "not destroying the UX perspective" - and we're looking at how best to do that at the moment. Additionally, the installer *is* an appropriate place for either of the links suggested - visiting the products website, or subscribing to the products announce mailing list is a perfectly reasonable thing to do post-installation. I'm happy to try to put two links on the final page and see how it looks, but I don't think it'll work well - and assuming it doesn't, we'll need to figure out whether to link to the -announce subscription page, or the homepage. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > I'm happy to try to put two links on the final page and see how it > looks, but I don't think it'll work well - and assuming it doesn't, > we'll need to figure out whether to link to the -announce subscription > page, or the homepage. If there was a "Sign up to News" anywhere near the home page, I'd say lets go to home page. There isn't, so we should get people signed up to Announce list, priority #1. If we don't then people won't know to upgrade, fix security vulnerabilities etc.. They won't find out about conferences and all the other good things. > Aside from my other objections, PR (in that sense at least) is really > not the job of pgAdmin. It is there to help you manage your databases, When installed as part of the PostgreSQL installer - then pgadmin *is* PostgreSQL as far as users are concerned. So pgadmin is fair game to include options of interest to the PostgreSQL community - but only when packaged as part of the PostgreSQL installer. As I said, don't mind where we put it, as long as we put it somewhere on installer/pgadmin. I'm not sure what you mean by PR in this context, what has that got to do with this? -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > >>> Can we get some community resources a little better represented? >> >> I am working on a new design for that page at the moment, following a >> discussion I had with Ed on that very topic last week. My aim is to do >> exactly what you suggest. > > Glad to hear it. This has been deployed now. -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
n Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >> >>>> Can we get some community resources a little better represented? >>> >>> I am working on a new design for that page at the moment, following a >>> discussion I had with Ed on that very topic last week. My aim is to do >>> exactly what you suggest. >> >> Glad to hear it. > > This has been deployed now. Please say what has been deployed... -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services