Thread: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
> -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-www-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Gavin M. Roy > Sent: 12 November 2004 22:45 > To: Bruce Momjian > Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus; > pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org; Omar Kilani; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate > PostgreSQL.org Design > > > If I felt like there was a way to help get the site done that > I could truly contribute to, other than offering opinions on > direction and what not, I would be there doing it. Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in the short term if you can contribute. I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me - it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually help out. As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already discussed or even done. So, here's the current plan again: 1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list. 2) Make the new website live. 3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites. 3b) Review/update/sanitise all content. In addition to which, I've have suggested to a number of volunteers that a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs. Regards, Dave
>Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in >the short term if you can contribute. > > Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source, but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes to actually get something done. Add to that lack of documention to coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am. >I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and >shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me > > To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you werent one of them Dave ;). That's not to say.. well never mind. >- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point >of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work >we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives >of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely >disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each >week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually >help out. > > I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*. There are many ways for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly easy and could take less than a day. >As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I >can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get >flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already >discussed or even done. > I've been on here a while, and I notice the flame wars. I try not to stir them up. Without a clear person in charge, it's collective group think, and in collective group think people will always disagree and stuff won't get done en masse. >So, here's the current plan again: > >1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list. >2) Make the new website live. >3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites. >3b) Review/update/sanitise all content. > > Point me to the todo list and put up with my questions about how to get stuff put in approved, working, etc and hopefully I can contribute. Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's, sorry Lucaz... >In addition to which, I've have suggested to a number of volunteers that >a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs. > > That would be nice, I know of one that works really well ;-) Gavin
On Friday 12 November 2004 18:56, Gavin M. Roy wrote: > >Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in > >the short term if you can contribute. > > Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if > it's in cvs, how to get at it. Gavin, you are on the -www list aren't you? It's been posted there many times. Just in case not, it's at http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo > Alexey posted a tarball of his source, > but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design > went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd > rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes > to actually get something done. Huh? IIRC the last patch I saw you send in was applied by Dave a couple days later? > Add to that lack of documention to > coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not > wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am. > Heh... well, we do have a couple of minor docs in the CVS about coding standards... um... I'll just ignore the part about Alexey. > >I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and > >shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me > > To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you > werent one of them Dave ;). That's not to say.. well never mind. > > >- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point > >of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work > >we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives > >of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely > >disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each > >week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually > >help out. > > I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that > in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with > "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*. This is generally true only if it is a rehash of something we have been over dozens of times. Kind of like when people pop-up on -hackers and say "I'm ready to start coding up a threaded back-end, which files should I be looking at" Otherwise my experience has been more of people asking what they can do to help and us responding with "look at the todo/look at the portal code" and then people either disappear or people point out they were hoping to implement some CMS or other radical whizbang code and then they disappear after we we don't get enthusiastic about it. > There are many ways > for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up > with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get > lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and > wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly > easy and could take less than a day. > You have to realize that this is at least the 5th design we have seen for the new site, none of which get us any closer to getting the new site launched if for no other reason that each of these designs seems to spur another round of website flaming. Also, for the record, I ask the tinysofa people if they would be interested in submitting some updated banners and/or buttons for our propaganda page and got no response. That's another example of us trying to find ways for people to get involved and people not bothering when it's not on their personal agenda. > >As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I > >can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get > >flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already > >discussed or even done. > > I've been on here a while, and I notice the flame wars. I try not to > stir them up. Without a clear person in charge, it's collective group > think, and in collective group think people will always disagree and > stuff won't get done en masse. > We manage to develop the database without a single person in charge, do we really have to one person in charge of www? I don't think so. Dave and I are on the same page, and I think most of the regulars (devrim/marc/alexey/john/chris) are as well. > >So, here's the current plan again: > > > >1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list. > >2) Make the new website live. > >3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites. > >3b) Review/update/sanitise all content. > And actually as I look at this list, I think we could launch the site relatively soon. There are things that look like garbage, but they are no worse than what we currently have. I'll take a swing at updating the todo list tonight. -- Robert Treat Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Hi, Gavin M. Roy wrote: >> Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in >> the short term if you can contribute. >> > Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if > it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source, > but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design > went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd > rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes > to actually get something done. The project is on gborg: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied. > Add to that lack of documention to > coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not > wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am. What documentation exactly do you want? There is a README on setting up a copy of the website in CVS / tarball. I can write more docs certainly, but bear in mind that I am not a native English speaker so they may be unclear --- please ask in such case. > I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that > in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with > "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*. That's not "Alexey's" code: it was started by Andreas ~1 year ago. While the current version is rewritten quite a bit, still I was continuing the work of someone else. What's so hard in doing the same? > There are many ways > for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up > with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get > lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and > wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly > easy and could take less than a day. Yes, there is nothing difficult in applying the new design and yes, it will take less than a day. But I'd like to repeat what I said in private email to Omar: I am not interested in doing this myself. If someone else will do this --- fine with me. But I do not want to waste my time, 'cause I am not sure that a new person with a better design will not surface in a week's time. > Point me to the todo list and put up with my questions about how to get > stuff put in approved, working, etc and hopefully I can contribute. > Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's, > sorry Lucaz... http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo If you like the new design so much, you can setup a copy of the current website (as outlined in the README) and try applying the new design to it. Then you can show everyone that it works and send in a patch.
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote: > Hi, > > Gavin M. Roy wrote: > >> Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in > >> the short term if you can contribute. > >> > > Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if > > it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source, > > but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design > > went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd > > rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes > > to actually get something done. > > The project is on gborg: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php > > What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember > receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied. I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy. > If you like the new design so much, you can setup a copy of the current website > (as outlined in the README) and try applying the new design to it. Then you can > show everyone that it works and send in a patch. I agree. It seems as though Omar has done this. Omar, can you send a patch? Gavin (Sherry)
Hi, Gavin Sherry wrote: >>What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember >>receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied. > > I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy. Ouch. Sorry for that. :)