Thread: Re: [webmaster] online demonstration against EU Software Patents
> -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > > Hi Dave, > > Would it be ok for us to do something more prominent? > Preferably copy-n-paste the KDE page's warning to the top of > the PG homepage, just above the News and Events. > > Ensuring patent coverage isn't widened is in the direct > interests of PostgreSQL. Hi Justin, Agreed - what do the rest of the web group think; anyone got any better wording? Any objections? Regards, Dave.
On Saturday 10 April 2004 15:20, Dave Page wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org]
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Would it be ok for us to do something more prominent?
> > Preferably copy-n-paste the KDE page's warning to the top of
> > the PG homepage, just above the News and Events.
> >
> > Ensuring patent coverage isn't widened is in the direct
> > interests of PostgreSQL.
>
> Hi Justin,
>
> Agreed - what do the rest of the web group think; anyone got any better
> wording? Any objections?
>
Honestly? I'd be hesitant to put the project into the middle of any political
discussion. Someone thinking about using postgresql for business might see
the banners and decide they dont want to be involved with us at all...
I'd probably debate it further if I was actually for software patents...
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > On Saturday 10 April 2004 15:20, Dave Page wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > Would it be ok for us to do something more prominent? > > > Preferably copy-n-paste the KDE page's warning to the top of > > > the PG homepage, just above the News and Events. > > > > > > Ensuring patent coverage isn't widened is in the direct > > > interests of PostgreSQL. > > > > Hi Justin, > > > > Agreed - what do the rest of the web group think; anyone got any better > > wording? Any objections? > > > > Honestly? I'd be hesitant to put the project into the middle of any political > discussion. Someone thinking about using postgresql for business might see > the banners and decide they dont want to be involved with us at all... > I'd probably debate it further if I was actually for software patents... Just curious here, but aren't software patents already an issue in the US? I know I've been seeing several going around, or, at least, I believe I have ... if so, how does this extenting to the EU make any difference? Myself, I agree with Robert here about being in the middle of things, but only if I'm correct in that this is already a problem in the US that isn't going to make anything worse/better by the EU having/not having it ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
On Sunday 11 April 2004 17:05, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Robert Treat wrote: > > On Saturday 10 April 2004 15:20, Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > > > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > > Would it be ok for us to do something more prominent? > > > > Preferably copy-n-paste the KDE page's warning to the top of > > > > the PG homepage, just above the News and Events. > > > > > > > > Ensuring patent coverage isn't widened is in the direct > > > > interests of PostgreSQL. > > > > > > Hi Justin, > > > > > > Agreed - what do the rest of the web group think; anyone got any better > > > wording? Any objections? > > > > Honestly? I'd be hesitant to put the project into the middle of any > > political discussion. Someone thinking about using postgresql for > > business might see the banners and decide they dont want to be involved > > with us at all... > > > > I'd probably debate it further if I was actually for software patents... > > Just curious here, but aren't software patents already an issue in the US? > I know I've been seeing several going around, or, at least, I believe I > have ... if so, how does this extenting to the EU make any difference? > > Myself, I agree with Robert here about being in the middle of things, but > only if I'm correct in that this is already a problem in the US that isn't > going to make anything worse/better by the EU having/not having it ... > I think the deal is that those in Europe aren't currently subject to software patent litigation even if it violates US law. Further, some of the interpretations of the laws being proposed in Europe are fairly draconian, and could put more cautious open source distributors "out of business" so to speak. check out http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html for some informational links. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
It's rumoured that Robert Treat once said: > > I think the deal is that those in Europe aren't currently subject to > software patent litigation even if it violates US law. Further, some > of the interpretations of the laws being proposed in Europe are fairly > draconian, and could put more cautious open source distributors "out > of business" so to speak. check out > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html for some informational > links. Yes, that's about right - in fact the link at the bottom of that page leads to the proper Knoppix homepage which mentions even simple common features like progress bars and scrollable windows being under threat. The problem isn't even whether on not a project actually infringes a patent anyway though - just checking whether on not it does can cost a huge amount of money, so an unscrupulous corporate could put a project out of business with an infringement claim that warrants further investigation, whether or not the claim is valid. As for the US issue - my understanding is that in the US you can only patent complex software processes and concepts, whereas in the EU you will be able to patent simple 'things' such as UI controls. Regards, Dave
Dave Page wrote: > It's rumoured that Robert Treat once said: > > > > I think the deal is that those in Europe aren't currently subject to > > software patent litigation even if it violates US law. Further, some > > of the interpretations of the laws being proposed in Europe are fairly > > draconian, and could put more cautious open source distributors "out > > of business" so to speak. check out > > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html for some informational > > links. > > Yes, that's about right - in fact the link at the bottom of that page > leads to the proper Knoppix homepage which mentions even simple common > features like progress bars and scrollable windows being under threat. The > problem isn't even whether on not a project actually infringes a patent > anyway though - just checking whether on not it does can cost a huge > amount of money, so an unscrupulous corporate could put a project out of > business with an infringement claim that warrants further investigation, > whether or not the claim is valid. > As for the US issue - my understanding is that in the US you can only > patent complex software processes and concepts, whereas in the EU you will > be able to patent simple 'things' such as UI controls. Here is a scarey article talking about patents and generating patent revenue: http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-5189747.html?tag=nefd.top Dave is right that just checking on patents can make software development impossible for all but the largest organization. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Bruce Momjian wrote: <snip> > Dave is right that just checking on patents can make software > development impossible for all but the largest organization. Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home page more prominent? :) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home > page more prominent? More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200404120710 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFAenmDvJuQZxSWSsgRAj0tAKCE7mTm7ebLRTpnG+PtwYzZgYReVQCfXJNF IE4kM/xght/dY9pLEkbxgg8= =6mVd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Justin Clift wrote: > Bruce Momjian wrote: > <snip> > > Dave is right that just checking on patents can make software > > development impossible for all but the largest organization. > > Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home page more > prominent? No, it already looks pretty prominenty to me. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: [ There is text before PGP section. ] > [ PGP not available, raw data follows ] > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home > > page more prominent? > > More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing > currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading > the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote > for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. Good description, and suggestion. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: <snip> > More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing > currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading > the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote > for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. It still raises people's awareness, regardless of whether they can get to Brussels or not. This is not really a political issue. It's looking after our own long term interests. :-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift
Would you guys feel better about http://www.e-labs.org/patent_overload.gif Robert Treat On Monday 12 April 2004 07:34, Bruce Momjian wrote: > Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > [ There is text before PGP section. ] > > [ PGP not available, raw data follows ] > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home > > > page more prominent? > > > > More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing > > currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading > > the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote > > for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. > > Good description, and suggestion. -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Justin Clift wrote: > Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > <snip> > > More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing > > currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading > > the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote > > for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. > > It still raises people's awareness, regardless of whether they can get > to Brussels or not. > > This is not really a political issue. It's looking after our own long > term interests. Nobody has yet mentioned how this is the case ... how would such a patent affect us? For instance, there is no EU corporate entity that anyone could claim copyright infringement against, so there is nobody to 'tie up in the courts' ... would this give someone in the EU the ability to take companyA *using* PostgreSQL to court? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
Keep the project apolitical? What happens if someone patents "A software that stores and manages data" - PostgreSQL willthen be illegal here in Europe - who should pay the license fees? And this is exactly the type of patent we are talkingabout (and that kind of patents already exist here in Germany, they just are not legal yet). Mit freundlichen Grüßen Andreas Grabmüller ----- Original-Nachricht ----- Von: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com> An: pgsql-www@postgresql.org Datum: Monday, April 12, 2004 01:11 PM Betreff: [pgsql-www] [webmaster] online demonstration against EU Software > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Cool. Does this mean we're ok to make the warning on the home > > page more prominent? > > More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing > currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading > the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote > for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. > > - -- > Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com > PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200404120710 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iD8DBQFAenmDvJuQZxSWSsgRAj0tAKCE7mTm7ebLRTpnG+PtwYzZgYReVQCfXJNF > IE4kM/xght/dY9pLEkbxgg8= > =6mVd > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org -- LetzPlay.de | Freemail: http://www.letzplay.de/mail | Forenhosting: http://www.letzplay.de/foren
> Nobody has yet mentioned how this is the case ... how would such a patent > affect us? For instance, there is no EU corporate entity that anyone > could claim copyright infringement against, so there is nobody to 'tie up > in the courts' ... would this give someone in the EU the ability to take > companyA *using* PostgreSQL to court? I'm not sure if this is the case. However, the distribution would be illegal. The biggest distributor in Germany is SuSE- and they would be no more able to distribute PostgreSQL (and many more things)... Mit freundlichen Grüßen Andreas Grabmüller -- LetzPlay.de | Freemail: http://www.letzplay.de/mail | Forenhosting: http://www.letzplay.de/foren
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Andreas Grabmueller wrote: > Keep the project apolitical? What happens if someone patents "A software > that stores and manages data" - PostgreSQL will then be illegal here in > Europe - who should pay the license fees? And this is exactly the type > of patent we are talking about (and that kind of patents already exist > here in Germany, they just are not legal yet). 'k, but such a broad patent would see ppl like Oracle, Sybase and several other commercial vendors in court, no? I can't see that sort of patent holding up for very long ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Justin Clift wrote:
>> This is not really a political issue. It's looking after our own long
>> term interests.
It certainly is a political issue, but I agree that it's in our long
term interests to worry about it. Being apolitical in this situation
is unilateral disarmament: we can be as apolitical as we like, but
that's not going to stop the lawyers from putting us out of business.
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org> writes:
> Nobody has yet mentioned how this is the case ... how would such a patent
> affect us?
By making it illegal or dangerous for European software developers to
work on Postgres.
It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that Microsoft is pushing
this (behind the scenes of course). Bill Gates is on record as seeing
"cut off your opponent's air supply" as legitimate competitive behavior.
In this case the air supply he's hoping to cut off for open source is
the availability of developers. If people are afraid to contribute at
all, or spend all their time researching patent issues instead of doing
productive coding, then open-source development dies.
regards, tom lane
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> More prominent than the ugly, neon green animated Pac-man like thing >> currently on the home page? What percentage of the people reading >> the page are really going to be able to "come to Brussels?" I vote >> for removing it and keeping the project as apolitical as possible. > > ... > This is not really a political issue. It's looking after our own long > term interests. * Can we replace the ad with something else? Anything else? The color choices are horrible. The site is sad enough already (any word on the new one anyone?) * Who makes the decision of what goes on the site? Core? The -www list? Marc? Is there a process? * Why not at least have a "news item" that explains why the banner is there, why people should be concerned, and what it might mean to the PostgreSQL project. Asking people to click on a banner ad mentioning Brussels is not going to entice many people to learn more. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200404122050 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFAezmRvJuQZxSWSsgRAk4dAKDGoVtfkgCc3NAY80jdXz+ncE7YxwCg38Jh zN20vj82VOffumXlQG+sDLM= =mpQ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > * Who makes the decision of what goes on the site? Core? The -www list? > Marc? Is there a process? Concensus where possible ... I'm not against putting it up, else I'd be more vocal ... I'm just more curious as to potential impact on us if the law does go through ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
It's rumoured that Greg Sabino Mullane once said: > > * Can we replace the ad with something else? Anything else? The color > choices are horrible. OK I appreciate that it wasn't the nicest banner, but did it have to get changed for a 200KB one?!!?! > The site is sad enough already I didn't hear you screaming suggestions when I redesigned it - at the time everyone who commented liked it. Regards, Dave.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > OK I appreciate that it wasn't the nicest banner, but did it have to get > changed for a 200KB one?!!?! Yeah, that one is a bit long to sit through. >> The site is sad enough already > I didn't hear you screaming suggestions when I redesigned it - at the time > everyone who commented liked it. Has it been redesigned? I thought we had a new version in the wings, waiting for this, that, and the other. As far as helping out, I've put in plenty of suggestions over time, and even joined the gborg group (one of the few who did) to put my money where my mouth is. My biggest suggestion for the site right now is to lose the fixed-width table - it looks terrible to see the site constrained to a centered box in the middle of the browser. Second biggest is to lose the "Contact the Webmasters" box, which seems pointless and almost borders on rude with the wording about ignoring requests. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200404140744 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFAfSSzvJuQZxSWSsgRAm5kAJ9kXP0YBKDvq2evEf6BSSWY+6infQCgl1HJ BL+7RjbcEFd1lQ/d4i/a62Q= =EPUE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----