Thread: Page contents
One of the things I'm struck with, both as a view of the page, and when I've been working on redesigns is how much information is displayed on this front page. This has been brought up by others as well. On Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 02:01 AM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira wrote: > PS> What about the content ? We need to plan the links, boxes and etc. > We don't need all items in the index. I made a previous content. > Comments ? I wonder if people don't get a little overwhelmed when they view the site. I tried to address this a little in this design (published before (correctly!) by Andreas, included here again for convenience) http://200.46.204.98/postgresql_org/html/index3.htm There's definitely from for improvement. For example, I think downloading, versions, and mirrors are all very similar—you look for mirrors for alternative places to download, you want to know what versions are available for download—and could be grouped effectively rather than having them in different places around the page. I also tried to reduce the descriptive text. For example, some things such as About and Contact appear to becoming quite standard on many pages, and can replace longer descriptions such as "What is PostgreSQL?" and "Contact the Webmasters". In the latter case, it provides a chance to provide more contact information to direct someone more specifically besides just a mailto. There needs to be a balance between making things easily accessible to visitors and (potentially) giving them too much to handle off the bat. I'm not suggesting where that balance should be, but I'm interested to know what others think about how much can be cut down, combined, or eliminated, or expanded upon. (Longer descriptions of news? Fewer news items on the front page?) It looks like Euler Taveira de Oliveira has thought about some of these things too, given the departures he's taken in his redesigns. I haven't heard a lot about this, so perhaps people like the moves in this direction. Keeping in mind that I am a newcomer, I know I'm missing quite a bit of history when it comes to the thoughts that were put into the current design. There is an advantage to being a newcomer as well, as that's what hopefully a lot of visitors are. Comments? Michael
Guys, (FYI: Michael, your site design did not render at all well on Konqueror) I agree with Michael that something needs to be done to reduce the number of links and text on the main page. One approach taken by many websites is to reduce their links to the major headings and a handful (3-5) of frequently requested items. I think that's a good approach for us. The major headings, from my perspective, would be (in no particular order): Downloads Documentation & User Information Press Room Developers Gborg About Store and to come in the future: Jobs PostgreSQL Foundation Given those links and other stuff that needs to be on the front page, but *not* on other pages: Links to non-english sites Survey Mission Statement News Items Events I think we could have a pretty full page *without* providing any greater detail. And the whole page might load without scrolling at 1024x768, a consumation devoutly to be wished! FYI, things which are coming to our web site in the future: jobs.postgresql.org want ad list, in PHP/postgresql (my company is building this) (seperate "page") "Postgres CPAN", an searchable library of database functions, code snippits and examples (in Docs & Users) PostgreSQL In the News: scrolling links to news articles. (in Press Room) I mention the above because all will be dynamic content which needs to be plugged in somewhere. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
It's rumoured that Michael Glaesemann once said: > About and Contact appear to becoming quite standard on many > pages, and can replace longer descriptions such as "What is > PostgreSQL?" and "Contact the Webmasters". Don't change the last one - you don't have email from that address in your inbox to deal with!! Seriously, we had to add that otherwise we get every bug report, 'how do I create a table' and 'where do I download MySQL' email there is. It doesn't help the last one much, but the text in the contact box does stem the tide of other emails somewhat! Regards, Dave.
Hi Josh, > I think that's a good approach for us. The major headings, from my > perspective, would be (in no particular order): > > Downloads > Documentation & User Information > Press Room > Developers > Gborg > About > Store > Could you describe what each item will contain ? Maybe draft a site map? Like Michael I'm a newcomer and I don't know muchabout PostgreSQL Project. > and to come in the future: > Jobs > PostgreSQL Foundation > Nice things. > Given those links and other stuff that needs to be on the front page, but > *not* on other pages: > Links to non-english sites > Survey > Mission Statement > News Items > Events > If we don't want to put it on the front page, maybe we could attach each one to the main links. > I think we could have a pretty full page *without* providing any greater > detail. And the whole page might load without scrolling at 1024x768, a > consumation devoutly to be wished! > Maybe, we have it! But it depends on the amount of information we will provide. > I mention the above because all will be dynamic content which needs to be > plugged in somewhere. > Sure. Regards, -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira euler (at) ufgnet.ufg.br Desenvolvedor Web e Administrador de Sistemas UFGNet - Universidade Federal de Goiás
Hi Michael, > I wonder if people don't get a little overwhelmed when they view the > site. I tried to address this a little in this design (published before > (correctly!) by Andreas, included here again for convenience) > > http://200.46.204.98/postgresql_org/html/index3.htm > Oh, nice job. Pretty neat. > There's definitely from for improvement. For example, I think > downloading, versions, and mirrors are all very similaryou look for > mirrors for alternative places to download, you want to know what > versions are available for downloadand could be grouped effectively > rather than having them in different places around the page. > Yes, that's what I ask for Josh. > I also tried to reduce the descriptive text. For example, some things > such as About and Contact appear to becoming quite standard on many > pages, and can replace longer descriptions such as "What is > PostgreSQL?" and "Contact the Webmasters". In the latter case, it > provides a chance to provide more contact information to direct someone > more specifically besides just a mailto. > I agree with Dave. We need to provide "Contact the Webmaster" but I think it could be in the bottom of the page. It's notas important as Documentation! > There needs to be a balance between making things easily accessible to > visitors and (potentially) giving them too much to handle off the bat. > I'm not suggesting where that balance should be, but I'm interested to > know what others think about how much can be cut down, combined, or > eliminated, or expanded upon. (Longer descriptions of news? Fewer news > items on the front page?) > > It looks like Euler Taveira de Oliveira has thought about some of these > things too, given the departures he's taken in his redesigns. I haven't > heard a lot about this, so perhaps people like the moves in this > direction. > Yeah. We are providing some design but we don't have the site map. > Keeping in mind that I am a newcomer, I know I'm missing quite a bit of > history when it comes to the thoughts that were put into the current > design. There is an advantage to being a newcomer as well, as that's > what hopefully a lot of visitors are. > Me too. That's why I'm asking for build the site map. Regards, -- Euler Taveira de Oliveira euler (at) ufgnet.ufg.br Desenvolvedor Web e Administrador de Sistemas UFGNet - Universidade Federal de Goiás
Euler,
> > Downloads
> > Documentation & User Information
> > Press Room
> > Developers
> > Gborg
> > About
> > Store
> >
>
> Could you describe what each item will contain ? Maybe draft a site map?
Like Michael I'm a newcomer and I don't know much about PostgreSQL Project.
Keep in mind that I am *not* leadership for WWW, I am just making suggestions.
Downloads: the mirrors, links to Bitorrent, etc.
Documentation & User Information: links to:
--> Official Docs
--> Techdocs
--> General Bits
--> Books & Book Reviews
--> Mailing Lists
--> Archives
Press Room:
--> News
--> PG in the News
--> Marketing Propaganda
--> Sponsor listing
--> Logos etc.
--> Case Studies
--> other stuff currently on the Advocacy site
Developers: what's currently on the developers.postgresql.org site.
About:
--> Contributor Listing
--> How to Contact
--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] > Sent: 14 November 2003 20:47 > To: euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > Keep in mind that I am *not* leadership for WWW, I am just > making suggestions. No, but you *are* the leadership for advocacy, and as such, we provide the technical/design resource for what is essentially your content (or at least that's how I think it should be and we seem to be moving that way). Regards, Dave.
Dave,
> No, but you *are* the leadership for advocacy, and as such, we provide
> the technical/design resource for what is essentially your content (or
> at least that's how I think it should be and we seem to be moving that
> way).
Don't repeat that where Peter can hear it ... he'd shoot me.
Seriously, the website serves a triple purpose: to serve the developers,
current users, and advocacy. Traditionally, the concerns of the first 2
groups have always outweighed the last purpose; after all, keeping our
*existing* people happy is more imporant than getting more people.
Also, I suck at HTML, am not a web designer (or a graphic designer, come to
that) and am unlikely to personally write much of the code. So my advice is
as Advocacy Geek and Techdocs leader and needs to be balanced by the web guys
who have more experience implementing "content" sites.
--
-Josh Berkus
______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________
Josh Berkus
Complete information technology josh@agliodbs.com
and data management solutions (415) 565-7293
for law firms, small businesses fax 621-2533
and non-profit organizations. San Francisco
> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] > Sent: 14 November 2003 21:09 > To: Dave Page; euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > Dave, > > > No, but you *are* the leadership for advocacy, and as such, > we provide > > the technical/design resource for what is essentially your > content (or > > at least that's how I think it should be and we seem to be > moving that > > way). > > Don't repeat that where Peter can hear it ... he'd shoot me. No comment. <grin> > > Seriously, the website serves a triple purpose: to serve the > developers, current users, and advocacy. Traditionally, the > concerns of the first 2 groups have always outweighed the > last purpose; after all, keeping our > *existing* people happy is more imporant than getting more people. Yes, however I think we learnt long ago that our people are happy as long as the content is accessible. The focus these days should be on our userbase, and prospective users, and with the exception of a few sections like the docs, that's all down to you guys. Things like release notes, press releases, case studies, promo events, certified training, support companies, jobs and so-on. All we do is take text and put it on a nice format on a bunch of servers :-) > Also, I suck at HTML, am not a web designer (or a graphic > designer, come to > that) and am unlikely to personally write much of the code. > So my advice is as Advocacy Geek and Techdocs leader and > needs to be balanced by the web guys who have more experience > implementing "content" sites. That's exactly what I mean. I'm not a web designer by trade, but I have been building interactive sites since 1992 (yes, 1992, that's not a typo). However, I need to rely on you to tell me what to write on the site - what I think is good marketing speak, probably doesn't work well in your world :-). Regards, Dave.
On Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 05:34 AM, Euler Taveira de Oliveira wrote: > Hi Josh, > >> I think that's a good approach for us. The major headings, from my >> perspective, would be (in no particular order): >> >> Downloads >> Documentation & User Information >> Press Room >> Developers >> Gborg >> About >> Store >> > > Could you describe what each item will contain ? Maybe draft a site > map? Like Michael I'm a newcomer and I don't know much about > PostgreSQL Project. Thanks for the feedback, Josh. It seems in keeping with the thoughts I've been having, and adds some I hadn't thought of. To see if I'm understanding you correctly Downloads brings you to a page where you can download PostgreSQL. Pretty much the same as now. Documentation & User Information Can we shorten this somewhat? I guess I prefer the term Documentation, but then I'm kind of a geek and don't know if new users or potential users would know to go there. This would bring you to a choice of the interactive and static documention, as well as PDF versions. Also pretty close to now. Press Room Brings you to a list of contact information for news/event/advocacy related people, archives for news(?), and possibly an way for translators to add material? (Just a thought.) Developers Brings you to the front page of developer.postgresql.org GBorg (or is it Gborg? I've seen it both ways) I think this particular one can use a short description. Maybe it doesn't have to be in exactly this place, perhaps tied in with the GBorg statistics info (another thing I had thought about with the "PostgreSQL Projects at GBorg" header for statistics), but I think a description (or rewording) is necessary as it's not clear what it is immediately. About This is the "What is..." link. I'd actually put it higher in the list, possibly the first one, so newcomers can see it immediately. Longtime users won't have any problem avoiding it. Store This could definitely be more prominent, I think. Right now it's just in the footer bar, which I've been thinking we might be able to do without...comments? I'm thinking we can keep the front page short enough that it's not necessary. As it is right now, it's only three screens on my 14in laptop, and I think it'll probably get more compact. It's not like reading the doc pages. >> and to come in the future: >> Jobs >> PostgreSQL Foundation >> > > Nice things. > >> Given those links and other stuff that needs to be on the front page, >> but >> *not* on other pages: >> Links to non-english sites >> Survey >> Mission Statement >> News Items >> Events >> > If we don't want to put it on the front page, maybe we could attach > each one to the main links. If I'm understanding Josh correctly, these are things we *do* need on the front page. And I'd agree with him on that (except for possibly the mission statement, but I can see it both ways). These things really don't belong on any other page, and we want them available to people when they first visit. >> I think we could have a pretty full page *without* providing any >> greater >> detail. And the whole page might load without scrolling at 1024x768, >> a >> consumation devoutly to be wished! >> > Maybe, we have it! But it depends on the amount of information we will > provide. I think it's doable, and a worthy goal.
On Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Dave Page wrote: > It's rumoured that Michael Glaesemann once said: >> About and Contact appear to becoming quite standard on many >> pages, and can replace longer descriptions such as "What is >> PostgreSQL?" and "Contact the Webmasters". > > Don't change the last one - you don't have email from that address in > your > inbox to deal with!! > Seriously, we had to add that otherwise we get every bug report, 'how > do I > create a table' and 'where do I download MySQL' email there is. It > doesn't > help the last one much, but the text in the contact box does stem the > tide > of other emails somewhat! I'm definite not proposing getting rid of that message. Anything to help people reach the answers they want from the people who can (and want to!) answer them is a good thing. What I'm suggesting is instead of Contact being a mailto link, it brings you to a contact page which would include contacting the webmaster (with message), as well as links to other people and pages—as well as post addresses, if appropriate—they may wish to contact in the PostgreSQL community. This currently isn't available from the front page. Having this page buried one link in would have the added benefit of making it just a little bit harder for the knee jerk "Help mE!!!!!!" emailers to deluge you with their requests. Any site redesign should have as a goal to reduce the number of emails you get because people will be able to find their information on their own. But then again, it might increase with all of the compliments on the fine redesign ;) Seriously, though, is this reasonable? Michael
On Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:47 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > Guys, > > (FYI: Michael, your site design did not render at all well on > Konqueror) Thanks for the site check. It looks like I'm able to run Konqueror on OS X, so hopefully I'll be able to head off these kinds of things. It kind of surprises me that Konqueror has problems with the page, as Safari and Konqueror are both based on the KHTML engine. I know Apple forked KHTML, but I didn't think there'd be that much of a departure. But that shows how far assumptions get me :) Back to the text editor. Michael
On Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:47 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > FYI, things which are coming to our web site in the future: > jobs.postgresql.org want ad list, in PHP/postgresql (my company is > building > this) (seperate "page") > "Postgres CPAN", an searchable library of database functions, code > snippits > and examples (in Docs & Users) > PostgreSQL In the News: scrolling links to news articles. (in Press > Room) Good stuff, especially the Postgres CPAN and code/function/example libraries. As a user, I'm looking forward to it. Michael
> -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Glaesemann [mailto:grzm@myrealbox.com] > Sent: 15 November 2003 04:25 > To: euler@ufgnet.ufg.br > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > GBorg (or is it Gborg? Gborg. Short for GreatBridge.org Regards, Dave.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Glaesemann [mailto:grzm@myrealbox.com] > Sent: 15 November 2003 04:36 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > Any site redesign should have as a goal to reduce the number > of emails you get because people will be able to find their > information on their own. But then again, it might increase > with all of the compliments on the fine redesign ;) > > Seriously, though, is this reasonable? Yup, I thought you just wanted to shorten the text. A sub page is fine. *HOWEVER* Let's not get carried away with new designs/content at the moment otherwise we'll never get anything finished. Some priorities: 1) *All* elements of the existing site must be translatable through Andreas' new framework. Some are php/html static pages, some are php/html dynamic pages and some are fully dynamic. 2) We need to sort the basic design issues. Resizeability, is the main one. 3) We would ideally like to be XHTML strict/CSS2 compliant. Let's get those basic things done, and live with the existing content, and *then* start looking at merging sites and restucturing content etc. Once everything works, that should be a lot easier. Some of you may not realise, but the main site alone has something like 10,000 pages iirc... Regards, Dave.
> > > > GBorg (or is it Gborg? > > Gborg. Short for GreatBridge.org > Actually it should be GBorg as in the example Dave gave where the first letter of each word is capitalized. Of course i'm only human and hitting the shift key takes more effort so I won't hold it over anyones head if they don't capitalize the B. ;) Chris Ryan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Hi Guys, Chris Ryan wrote: >>>GBorg (or is it Gborg? >> >>Gborg. Short for GreatBridge.org > > Actually it should be GBorg as in the example Dave gave where the first > letter of each word is capitalized. Of course i'm only human and > hitting the shift key takes more effort so I won't hold it over anyones > head if they don't capitalize the B. ;) Um... would it be ok to have the link to it from the front page say "Projects"? It looks like we're re-jiggering everything to be much more "new user" friendly, and new users will only click on GBorg if they're curious (that makes sense doesn't it?). Howver, "Projects" is more descriptive of what GBorg is about. ? Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift > Chris Ryan > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your > joining column's datatypes do not match
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Justin Clift wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Chris Ryan wrote: > >>>GBorg (or is it Gborg? > >> > >>Gborg. Short for GreatBridge.org > > > > Actually it should be GBorg as in the example Dave gave where the first > > letter of each word is capitalized. Of course i'm only human and > > hitting the shift key takes more effort so I won't hold it over anyones > > head if they don't capitalize the B. ;) > > Um... would it be ok to have the link to it from the front page say > "Projects"? > > It looks like we're re-jiggering everything to be much more "new user" > friendly, and new users will only click on GBorg if they're curious > (that makes sense doesn't it?). Agreed, and never even thought of that ...
> -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Ryan [mailto:xgbe@yahoo.com] > Sent: 15 November 2003 17:50 > To: Dave Page; Michael Glaesemann; euler@ufgnet.ufg.br > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > > > > GBorg (or is it Gborg? > > > > Gborg. Short for GreatBridge.org > > > > Actually it should be GBorg as in the example Dave gave where > the first letter of each word is capitalized. Of course i'm > only human and hitting the shift key takes more effort so I > won't hold it over anyones head if they don't capitalize the B. ;) %%£%$^£$£ auto correct!! I did mean to type two capitals, but Outlook knows better than me... :-( Regards, Dave.
Dave, > %%£%$^£$£ auto correct!! I did mean to type two capitals, but Outlook knows > better than me... :-( That's what you get for using Outlook. Well, that and computer viruses. <smirk> -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] > Sent: 16 November 2003 18:06 > To: Dave Page; Chris Ryan; Michael Glaesemann; euler@ufgnet.ufg.br > Cc: pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > Dave, > > > %%£%$^£$£ auto correct!! I did mean to type two capitals, > but Outlook > > knows better than me... :-( > > That's what you get for using Outlook. Well, that and > computer viruses. > <smirk> Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and have decent virus protection - just as anyone should no matterwhat mua they choose. The auto correct can be a pia when typing things like GBorg, but I can turn that off... :-) /D
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and have decent > virus protection - just as anyone should no matter what mua they choose. Don't have to worry about virii with pine :)
Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > >>Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and have decent >>virus protection - just as anyone should no matter what mua they choose. > > Don't have to worry about virii with pine :) Hmmm... it's probably not worth assuming that. Pine has had exploits available in the past: http://www.securiteam.com/exploits/5DP0D1PB5Y.html As has Netscape: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/bulletins/i-077b.shtml And Mutt: http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/debian-security-announce-2002/msg00000.html And so on. It's just that Outlook has a lot more. :-/ Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift
> -----Original Message----- > From: Marc G. Fournier [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] > Sent: 16 November 2003 19:11 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Josh Berkus; Chris Ryan; Michael Glaesemann; > euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > > > Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and > have decent > > virus protection - just as anyone should no matter what mua > they choose. > > Don't have to worry about virii with pine :) Trojan?
> -----Original Message----- > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > Sent: 16 November 2003 19:37 > To: Marc G. Fournier > Cc: Dave Page; Josh Berkus; Chris Ryan; Michael Glaesemann; > euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > And so on. It's just that Outlook has a lot more. > It's also worth remembering that all the big virii (Sobig, Melissa, Anna Kournikova etc.) outbreaks were not caused by any vulnerabilities in Outlook, but by doughnuts opening attachments that they shouldn't. That can happen on any mua given the appropriate class of idiot. Regards, Dave.
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Justin Clift wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > > > >>Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and have decent > >>virus protection - just as anyone should no matter what mua they choose. > > > > Don't have to worry about virii with pine :) > > Hmmm... it's probably not worth assuming that. Pine has had exploits > available in the past: > > http://www.securiteam.com/exploits/5DP0D1PB5Y.html 'K, granted, but that just makes it one of a thousand pieces of software out there that have buffer overflow issues :)
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marc G. Fournier [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] > > Sent: 16 November 2003 19:11 > > To: Dave Page > > Cc: Josh Berkus; Chris Ryan; Michael Glaesemann; > > euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > > > > > Nope, never had one of those - I watch what I'm doing and > > have decent > > > virus protection - just as anyone should no matter what mua > > they choose. > > > > Don't have to worry about virii with pine :) > > Trojan? That's a risk with *any* software, including commercial :( And I worry more about that with binaries then source code that I compile myself, especially if its very widely used ...
> -----Original Message----- > From: Marc G. Fournier [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] > Sent: 16 November 2003 20:42 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Marc G. Fournier; Josh Berkus; Chris Ryan; Michael > Glaesemann; euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > Subject: RE: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Dave Page wrote: > > > Trojan? > > That's a risk with *any* software, including commercial :( My point exactly :-) Regards, Dave.
Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org] > > Sent: 16 November 2003 19:37 > > To: Marc G. Fournier > > Cc: Dave Page; Josh Berkus; Chris Ryan; Michael Glaesemann; > > euler@ufgnet.ufg.br; pgsql-www@postgresql.org > > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > And so on. It's just that Outlook has a lot more. > > > > It's also worth remembering that all the big virii (Sobig, Melissa, Anna > Kournikova etc.) outbreaks were not caused by any vulnerabilities in > Outlook, but by doughnuts opening attachments that they shouldn't. That > can happen on any mua given the appropriate class of idiot. Should opening an email every give you a virus? I don't think so. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > Sent: 17 November 2003 00:34 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Justin Clift; pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Marc G. Fournier > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > Should opening an email every give you a virus? I don't think so. > No, but my point is without proper protection/procedures a user of any OS/MUA can open and execute a trojan. Regards, Dave.
Dave Page wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > > Sent: 17 November 2003 00:34 > > To: Dave Page > > Cc: Justin Clift; pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Marc G. Fournier > > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > Should opening an email every give you a virus? I don't think so. > > > > No, but my point is without proper protection/procedures a user of any > OS/MUA can open and execute a trojan. Right, but I think my MUA and helper applications are designed to be safe so I can't botch it up. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > Sent: 18 November 2003 00:51 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Justin Clift; pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Marc G. Fournier > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > Dave Page wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] > > > Sent: 17 November 2003 00:34 > > > To: Dave Page > > > Cc: Justin Clift; pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Marc G. Fournier > > > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Page contents > > > > > > Should opening an email every give you a virus? I don't think so. > > > > > > > No, but my point is without proper protection/procedures a > user of any > > OS/MUA can open and execute a trojan. > > Right, but I think my MUA and helper applications are > designed to be safe so I can't botch it up. As have been the last few versions of Outlook (proper, dunno about Express). To get round that protection you have to do some non-trivial registry hacking and even then you still get warnings when you try to open things. Whilst there are undoubtedly vulnerabilities in Outlook, as most other apps, I think it's unfair to blame a product just because it has a better class of idiot in it's userbase - especially when it's their actions that cause 99.9% of the problems. Anyhoo, this is waaaaay off-topic for here. I'm not overly interested, but if anyone feels compelled to keep discussing this, feel free to email me off-list :-) Regards, Dave.
Hello all! I've been thinking some about the site design but haven't done actual coding since the last time I posted site addresses. However, I am now the proud owner of a Mac sporting Mac OS X (with Safari, IE, Mozilla, Mozilla Firebird, Camino, Omniweb, and Opera), Mac OS9 emulation (Classic Mode) for Netscape 4.7 (considered moot, I know) *and* (drumroll please) KDE running in XFree86 with Konqueror! Yes, I know, this is all probably old hat to you guys, but it's a bit of an accomplishment for me and this 266MHz G3 I've had for ages. I think total compile time was something like 48 hours, testament both to the processor and my inexperience installing software that isn't already in a beautiful, simple, installer package. (Though I have installed PostgreSQL from source, I most often use Marc Liyanage's handy binary packages available at entropy.ch). I'm pretty happy about it. And I'm looking forward to installing PostgreSQL 7.4 from source in the near future. Thank you for listening, or at least remaining silent as you roll your eyes :) But, now that I've got Konqueror (3.1.2, running in KDE 3.1.2)up and running, I have a better chance to see what you've been seeing, Josh. And unfortunately, I can't seem to reproduce the same things. The pages look pretty close to what I've been seeing in the other browsers. I have noticed a slight glitch in page loading: I first see the page unstyled *very* briefly, but then the page is properly displayed. I think this mostly has to do with the speed of my machine and perhaps running KDE in XFree86 (XDarwin). Another difference is on the "basic" page (http://www.grzm.com/postgresql_org/html/index.htm) is the way Konqueror renders the middots used as bullets. I've implemented those css :before pseudo selectors, e.g., #latest dl dd:before { content: "\00B7 \0020" } for the Latest News list. I hard-coded the middots in the "Upcoming Events" box, and those work. But I unfortunately I'm not seeing a wide white space pushing center elements to the side. Maybe a Linux/Darwin difference? Anyway, something I'll need to solve some other way. One thing I was kind of surprised with in Konqueror was that the minimum font size on my installation defaults to 7px, which is pretty small. Is this the same on your installation, Josh? This is just out of curiousity, as you didn't mention the size being too small in Konqueror. I found the text in the Latest News and Upcoming Events too small in Konqueror. It seems a bit bigger in Firebird and Safari. Anyway, not a lot constructive here, just want to get some things straightened out. Now that my machine is now finished compiling, I'll be working on designs more. I'm aiming to get basically a good-looking reproduction of the current site using XHTML and CSS, with the intent on doing more "overhaul" type work at a later date when what's actually to be on the page is a bit firmer. That sounds in keeping with Dave's comments: > Some priorities: > > 1) *All* elements of the existing site must be translatable through > Andreas' new framework. Some are php/html static pages, some are > php/html dynamic pages and some are fully dynamic. > > 2) We need to sort the basic design issues. Resizeability, is the main > one. > > 3) We would ideally like to be XHTML strict/CSS2 compliant. > > Let's get those basic things done, and live with the existing content, > and *then* start looking at merging sites and restucturing content etc. > Once everything works, that should be a lot easier. Am I on the right page? Or reading the wrong book? By the way, congratulations on getting the presskits and pages up! From the flurry of mail earlier this week, you guys put together a lot of stuff in a short time. Michael
Michael, > packages available at entropy.ch). I'm pretty happy about it. And I'm > looking forward to installing PostgreSQL 7.4 from source in the near > future. Thank you for listening, or at least remaining silent as you > roll your eyes :) Congratulations! Since I compiled my first from-source program in 1999 (which was, I think, PostgreSQL), I understand the mental challenge of making the leap to source code. Plus compiling KDE with GCC on a Mac is no picnic, either -- you've initiated yourself into the world of source code by jumping in with both feet. PostgreSQL will be easier .... > But, now that I've got Konqueror (3.1.2, running in KDE 3.1.2)up and > running, I have a better chance to see what you've been seeing, Josh. > And unfortunately, I can't seem to reproduce the same things. Hmmm .... probably they occur only on 3.0.x, which means that we can ignore them. Linux people are used to being told to upgrade. > One thing I was kind of surprised with in Konqueror was that the > minimum font size on my installation defaults to 7px, which is pretty > small. Is this the same on your installation, Josh? I don't know; it's been too long since I had default settings. But I suspect so. > > 1) *All* elements of the existing site must be translatable through > > Andreas' new framework. Some are php/html static pages, some are > > php/html dynamic pages and some are fully dynamic. Yes. And I'd still like to see the admin interface for translation and run it by our team of volunteer translators. > By the way, congratulations on getting the presskits and pages up! From > the flurry of mail earlier this week, you guys put together a lot of > stuff in a short time. Well .... the stuff has been developing for weeks ... translating all of the releases and press kits took a month, I think. But since our sites have no way to save stuff to be posted later, we had to put everything up in a hurry last night. Which lead to some hellish problems with encodings, something to consider for multi-lingualism. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco
On Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 01:47 AM, Dave Page wrote: > Congrats! On Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 01:46 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Congratulations! Since I compiled my first from-source program in > 1999 (which > was, I think, PostgreSQL), I understand the mental challenge of making > the > leap to source code. Plus compiling KDE with GCC on a Mac is no > picnic, > either -- you've initiated yourself into the world of source code by > jumping > in with both feet. PostgreSQL will be easier .... Thanks for the show of support! However, I can't take full credit for compiling purely from source: I used Fink. I did manage to get my handles a little dirty figuring out a few dependency problems and moving my fink installation onto another partition, but I'm sure compiling purely from source and doing the make/make install shuffle is quite a bit more involved, 'specially with the number of packages that come with the Fink bundle-kde load. I think DocBook and OpenJade are hiding around there somewhere, too. (The designer in me would love to get my machine around the documentation!) Lots of stuff to explore. Pokey at 266MHz but doable. (I remember thinking how fast this laptop was when I upgraded from my 15.6MHz LCII... I wonder if I could run PostgreSQL on it? :) I've got my eyes set on a new PowerBook for a xmas gift to myself.) >> But, now that I've got Konqueror (3.1.2, running in KDE 3.1.2)up and >> running, I have a better chance to see what you've been seeing, Josh. >> And unfortunately, I can't seem to reproduce the same things. > > Hmmm .... probably they occur only on 3.0.x, which means that we can > ignore > them. Linux people are used to being told to upgrade. And you're used to doin' your own thing? :) Seriously though, I want to create as few problems as possible for as wide a field of browsers as possible (within reason). In the March 2003 Report Magic results, Konqueror 3 was about twice that of Konqueror 3.1, though that's 9 months ago. Webalizer results for October and November show only Konqueror 3.1; Konqueror 3.0 is not in the top 15. If the consensus is to ignore it, that's cool, but I'll see what I can do to make it work. Gotta figure out the disappearing text in IE6 too. Plus just make it "look pretty". >> One thing I was kind of surprised with in Konqueror was that the >> minimum font size on my installation defaults to 7px, which is pretty >> small. Is this the same on your installation, Josh? > > I don't know; it's been too long since I had default settings. But I > suspect > so. I suspected so (that you had changed the defaults—I would have). I use the named font sizes (xx-small through xx-large) as much as possible in the CSS, and I believe in some browsers xx-small is limited to minimum of 9px. Also, one of the nice things about named font sizes is that they don't compound: xx-small in a div whose parent is xx-small is still absolutely xx-small, it's not xxxx-small. This helps out in readability and accessibility. This can be defeated, however, if the browser's minimum font size is set to an unreadable level. >>> 1) *All* elements of the existing site must be translatable through >>> Andreas' new framework. Some are php/html static pages, some are >>> php/html dynamic pages and some are fully dynamic. > > Yes. And I'd still like to see the admin interface for translation > and run > it by our team of volunteer translators. Who's working on the admin interface? I assume it's Andreas. If there's something I can help out with there, I should have some time next week. > Which lead to some hellish problems with encodings, something to > consider for > multi-lingualism. I just saw Dave's post, which probably answers this more directly than what I'm about to write, but Unicode—in particular UTF-8—is really helpful for this. Compact for roman languages (1-byte/char), a little less compact for CJKV and other double-byte languages (1- to 4-bytes/char). Plus it simplifies serving the pages: set the header in the server to UTF-8, declare it in a meta-tag in the HTML (skip the xml prolog 'cause IE can't handle it) and you're good to go. Only *need* to use entities for & and <, though others are nice if you don't have easy access in your editor (and > is nice for symmetry). Michael