Thread: Favorite Tom Lane quotes
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz <gryzman@gmail.com> wrote: > > which reminds me, of my favourite recent quote: > "Think I'll go fix this while I'm watching the football game ..." We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly): We don't support that, but you're free to try it, you just get to keep both pieces if it breaks.
"Scott Marlowe" <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> writes:
> We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly):
> We don't support that, but you're free to try it, you just get to keep
> both pieces if it breaks.
Hate to disillusion you, but that's a standard comment around Red Hat.
I have no idea who said it first, but twasn't me.
regards, tom lane
Tom Lane wrote:
On idiotic benchmark comparisons "Try to carry 500 people from Los Angeles to Tokyo in an F-15. No? Try to win a dogfight in a 747. No? But they both fly, so it must be useful to compare them... especially on the basis of the most simplistic test case you can think of. For extra points, use *only one* test case. Perhaps this paper can be described as "comparing an F-15 to a 747 on the basis of required runway length
i took this off Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lane_(Open_Source_Software_Developer)"Scott Marlowe" <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> writes:We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly):We don't support that, but you're free to try it, you just get to keep both pieces if it breaks.Hate to disillusion you, but that's a standard comment around Red Hat. I have no idea who said it first, but twasn't me.
On idiotic benchmark comparisons "Try to carry 500 people from Los Angeles to Tokyo in an F-15. No? Try to win a dogfight in a 747. No? But they both fly, so it must be useful to compare them... especially on the basis of the most simplistic test case you can think of. For extra points, use *only one* test case. Perhaps this paper can be described as "comparing an F-15 to a 747 on the basis of required runway length
Tom on things that might ruin his tape backups: "Then of course there are the *other* risks, such as the place burning to the ground, or getting drowned by a break in the city reservoir that's a couple hundred yards up the hill...Or maybe being burgled by Oracle employees who are specifically after my backup tapes." -- * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 00:37 -0500, Greg Smith wrote: > Tom on things that might ruin his tape backups: > > "Then of course there are the *other* risks, such as the place burning to > the ground, or getting drowned by a break in the city reservoir that's a > couple hundred yards up the hill...Or maybe being burgled by Oracle > employees who are specifically after my backup tapes." What is a tape? > > -- > * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD > -- PostgreSQL Consulting, Development, Support, Training 503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 00:37 -0500, Greg Smith wrote: >> Tom on things that might ruin his tape backups: >> >> "Then of course there are the *other* risks, such as the place burning to >> the ground, or getting drowned by a break in the city reservoir that's a >> couple hundred yards up the hill...Or maybe being burgled by Oracle >> employees who are specifically after my backup tapes." > > What is a tape? Apparently something to do with backups. But I don't know what those are either... :-P
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:44 AM, Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> wrote:
Apparently something to do with backups. But I don't know what those
are either... :-P
About the tapes, I love that Oracle emps bit :D
Sure, they write too much java code, this is equivalent of getting high on h, if you ask me.
--
GJ
Scott Marlowe wrote: > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 00:37 -0500, Greg Smith wrote: > >> Tom on things that might ruin his tape backups: > >> > >> "Then of course there are the *other* risks, such as the place burning to > >> the ground, or getting drowned by a break in the city reservoir that's a > >> couple hundred yards up the hill...Or maybe being burgled by Oracle > >> employees who are specifically after my backup tapes." > > > > What is a tape? > > Apparently something to do with backups. But I don't know what those > are either... :-P > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996). Computer Networks. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, 83. ISBN 0-13-349945-6. A modern chrysler town and country(1) has a cargo capacity of 140.1 cubic feet(2) letting it carry 17163 LTO4 (3) tapes at 800GB each. Thats 13730TB. Say it has to get from San Francisco to LA (about 6 hrs according to google maps directions(4)), that gives 2288TB/hour, or 5.1 terabit/second. klint. 1. its more of a minivan than a station wagon these days but close enough. halve the number of tapes if you're thinking of the classic "woodie" http://www.allpar.com/old/townandcountry.html 2. http://www.chrysler.com/hostc/vsmc/vehicleSpecModels.do?modelYearCode=CUC200908 3. dimensions from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open 4. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=san+francisco&daddr=los+angeles&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.598104,116.542969&ie=UTF8&ll=35.939855,-120.330885&spn=7.601811,14.567871&z=7 -- Klint Gore Database Manager Sheep CRC A.G.B.U. University of New England Armidale NSW 2350 Ph: 02 6773 3789 Fax: 02 6773 3266 EMail: kgore4@une.edu.au
Klint Gore írta: > Scott Marlowe wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Joshua D. Drake >> <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: >> > On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 00:37 -0500, Greg Smith wrote: >> >> Tom on things that might ruin his tape backups: >> >> >> >> "Then of course there are the *other* risks, such as the place >> burning to >> >> the ground, or getting drowned by a break in the city reservoir >> that's a >> >> couple hundred yards up the hill...Or maybe being burgled by Oracle >> >> employees who are specifically after my backup tapes." >> > >> > What is a tape? >> >> Apparently something to do with backups. But I don't know what those >> are either... :-P >> > > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes > hurtling down the highway." —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996). Computer > Networks. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, 83. ISBN 0-13-349945-6. But the latency of a truck is awful :-) > A modern chrysler town and country(1) has a cargo capacity of 140.1 > cubic feet(2) letting it carry 17163 LTO4 (3) tapes at 800GB each. > Thats 13730TB. Say it has to get from San Francisco to LA (about 6 hrs > according to google maps directions(4)), that gives 2288TB/hour, or > 5.1 terabit/second. > > klint. > > 1. its more of a minivan than a station wagon these days but close > enough. halve the number of tapes if you're thinking of the classic > "woodie" http://www.allpar.com/old/townandcountry.html > 2. > http://www.chrysler.com/hostc/vsmc/vehicleSpecModels.do?modelYearCode=CUC200908 > > 3. dimensions from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open > 4. > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=san+francisco&daddr=los+angeles&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.598104,116.542969&ie=UTF8&ll=35.939855,-120.330885&spn=7.601811,14.567871&z=7 > > -- ---------------------------------- Zoltán Böszörményi Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH http://www.postgresql.at/
Hi, > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of > tapes hurtling down the highway." -Tanenbaum, Andrew S. > (1996). Computer Networks. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, 83. > ISBN 0-13-349945-6. > > A modern chrysler town and country(1) has a cargo capacity of > 140.1 cubic feet(2) letting it carry 17163 LTO4 (3) tapes at > 800GB each. > Thats 13730TB. Say it has to get from San Francisco to LA > (about 6 hrs according to google maps directions(4)), that > gives 2288TB/hour, or 5.1 terabit/second. That seems to be kind of a joke, but I heard that the french CNES (spatial agency) is doing some huge database replicationbetween two sites thanks to big trucks carrying the data once a month, because current network devices transferrates do not allow them to do remote replication through the network. Or maybe the reasons to this method are notonly technical but economical. I have no detailed information on this, and it's more a rumour than a verified information, but should somebody know moreon the subject, i'd be interested in hearing it. Vincent
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Picavet Vincent <Vincent.Picavet@mediapost.fr> wrote:
but than you have to add cost of backing up and restoring labour time, and that's going to be a massive latency - if you ask me.
--
GJ
That seems to be kind of a joke, but I heard that the french CNES (spatial agency) is doing some huge database replication between two sites thanks to big trucks carrying the data once a month, because current network devices transfer rates do not allow them to do remote replication through the network. Or maybe the reasons to this method are not only technical but economical.
I have no detailed information on this, and it's more a rumour than a verified information, but should somebody know more on the subject, i'd be interested in hearing it.
but than you have to add cost of backing up and restoring labour time, and that's going to be a massive latency - if you ask me.
--
GJ
On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 22:51 -0500, justin wrote: > On idiotic benchmark comparisons "Try to carry 500 people from Los > Angeles to Tokyo in an F-15. No? Try to win a dogfight in a 747. No? > But they both fly, so it must be useful to compare them... especially > on the basis of the most simplistic test case you can think of. For > extra points, use *only one* test case. Perhaps this paper can be > described as "comparing an F-15 to a 747 on the basis of required > runway length We used that analogy for comparing database benchmarks as far back as 1989-90 at Teradata. My memory is it was invented to counter claims that DB2 "was faster" after some disastrous initial benchmark results while attempting a straight database migration. The contrast was that the client/server overhead of each request *was* higher, though the parallel database could perform actions much faster when it eventually got started. The original analogy was a comparison of the passenger carrying capacity, since a jet fighter could only carry ~1 person while the airliner could carry 100s, yet the jet fighter could obviously deliver 1 person much faster to a destination. (At the time, the concept of client/server was widely laughed at). Joke -> Threat -> Obvious. That thought led to the development at BA of a system specifically designed to offload large SQL queries from the mainframe DB2 system. BA knew how to judge database systems and use them for what they were good at. (They continued to use TPF also, because of its speed of hash index implementation, amongst other optimisations). -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
Scott Marlowe wrote: >> What is a tape? > > Apparently something to do with backups. But I don't know what those > are either... :-P > From The Top Of My Head Dictionary - Backup Tapes noun Thin flimsy strip of plastic with a fine coating of iron oxide or similar compound which is then wound up around a small plastic wheel, stretched over a little head and onto another small plastic wheel. Normally used as a means of translating digital computer talk into an ear piercing noise that humans can then listen to to ensure that the computers aren't plotting to overthrow the earth. Legend has it that computers can use these tapes to reconstruct some piece of information as it was at some historic moment. While it has often been attempted to prove that this process is possible, the mixed reports about it's success leave most in doubt as to whether it can really be done and believing it is all just mythology. Of course the true believers will argue endlessly about the wonders of what can be done and how important it is, but they tend to have a low conversion rate among the listeners. ;-) -- Shane Ambler pgSQL (at) Sheeky (dot) Biz Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz
tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us (Tom Lane) writes: > "Scott Marlowe" <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> writes: >> We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly): > >> We don't support that, but you're free to try it, you just get to keep >> both pieces if it breaks. > > Hate to disillusion you, but that's a standard comment around Red Hat. > I have no idea who said it first, but twasn't me. There's a license that has that as its main clause. See the end of the document.. http://man.he.net/man8/chat An authoritative source for the original seems to have evaporated, but here's a direct "inheritor" implemented in Expect: http://expect.nist.gov/scripts/chat A quick web search indicates that ucLinux seems to include "old style chat" as also does DragonflyBSD... -- select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'linuxdatabases.info'; http://linuxfinances.info/info/linux.html "The chat program is in public domain. This is not the GNU public license. If it breaks then you get to keep both pieces." (Copyright notice for the chat program)
On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 10:40 +0000, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz wrote: > but than you have to add cost of backing up and restoring labour time, > and that's going to be a massive latency - if you ask me. Of course it is, but really latency probably isn't the key issue - more that the data itself isn't lost. -Mark
2008/12/1 Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>: > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz <gryzman@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> which reminds me, of my favourite recent quote: >> "Think I'll go fix this while I'm watching the football game ..." > > We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly): We have a little joke here in the office. Really, really bad code is 'horrid'. :-) merlin
On Monday 01 December 2008 22:09:08 Scott Marlowe wrote: > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz <gryzman@gmail.com> wrote: > > which reminds me, of my favourite recent quote: > > "Think I'll go fix this while I'm watching the football game ..." > > We really need a favorite Tom Lane quotes thread. Mine is (roughly): > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2006-04/msg00288.php I remember after reading this post wondering whether Tom uses caffeinated soap... -- Robert Treat Conjecture: http://www.xzilla.net Consulting: http://www.omniti.com
2008/12/4 Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2006-04/msg00288.php > I remember after reading this post wondering whether Tom uses caffeinated > soap... > well, some ppl come up with ideas on wc-thone ;) What do you suggest they do there ... ;> -- GJ
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz <gryzman@gmail.com> wrote: > 2008/12/4 Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>: >> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2006-04/msg00288.php >> I remember after reading this post wondering whether Tom uses caffeinated >> soap... >> > > well, some ppl come up with ideas on wc-thone ;) What do you suggest > they do there ... ;> One of my favorite tinwhistle tunes is named Dusty Windowsill. It's so named because Johnny Harling (sp?) was sitting on the toilet when the tune came to him, and having nothing else to write on, he wrote it out on a dusty windowsill. Genius strikes when it strikes. I've woken up at two in the morning with the answer to a complex programming problem at work, grabbed my laptop, pounded out a hundred or so lines, then spent the next two days trying to figure out how it worked.
On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 10:47 -0500, Robert Treat wrote: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2006-04/msg00288.php > I remember after reading this post wondering whether Tom uses > caffeinated soap My RHCE course book is still at WC -- I read it on some days ;) -- Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr http://www.gunduz.org
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Robert Treat wrote: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2006-04/msg00288.php > I remember after reading this post wondering whether Tom uses caffeinated > soap... Reading that link, I'm reminded of the "tertiary storage" code that somebody (at UCB?) grafted onto the PostgreSQL server. IIRC There were still hooks for it in v6 although they've since been removed. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]