Thread: PostgreSQL (fwd)
I don't have a CS background and don't really feel competent to answer this; so I am forwarding it to the PostgreSQL list. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:24:41 -0400 From: "Adien.Reynald.Suresh.Lopez" <ca9alo@isis.sunderland.ac.uk> To: olly@lfix.co.uk Subject: PostgreSQL Dear Oliver I am a student following an MSc in Advanced Software Engineering in UK. I have gone through the PostgreSQL site and have read lot about ORDBMS. I am planning to do my MSc dissertation titled, "An investigation into designing and developing a web information system applying an ORDBMS approach with PostgreSQL and Java Technology". What I want to do is to analyse why the ORDBMS is best suited for web information systems compared to OODBMS and RDBMS, and then design an applicatio n using UML (for object concepts of ORDBMS), DFDs and ERAs (for Relational concepts of ORDBMS) and then implement it using PostgreSQL and JDBC. Can you help me in suggesting how should go about it? Thanks and regards Adien adien.lopez@sunderland.ac.uk www.go.to/adienlopez ------- End of Forwarded Message -- Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 ======================================== "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that they have more systematic and well-thought feature set. there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object relational features) -- share the same original source code! my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix first. however, please come back!!! just imagine, if your thesis' title is "..... using informix and JDBC", it will be much less attractive! also, you may leave a very pround product or half-product for PG. So, use informix to get started, but do real work on PG! we are looking forward to your work. BTW, why not OODB? also, java has a new data interface almost identical to OODB query standard. I know, it's much more difficult, perhaps in between Master and Ph.D. :-) But it also much more exciting! check the archive of this listing, there was a discussion about this. hope this helps. -- I'll going to do similar work, "someday". Kai On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Oliver Elphick wrote: > I don't have a CS background and don't really feel competent to answer this; > so I am forwarding it to the PostgreSQL list. > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:24:41 -0400 > From: "Adien.Reynald.Suresh.Lopez" <ca9alo@isis.sunderland.ac.uk> > To: olly@lfix.co.uk > Subject: PostgreSQL > > Dear Oliver > > I am a student following an MSc in Advanced Software Engineering in UK. I have > gone through the PostgreSQL site and have read lot about ORDBMS. I am planning > to do my MSc dissertation titled, "An investigation into designing and > developing a web information system applying an ORDBMS approach with PostgreSQL > > and Java Technology". > > What I want to do is to analyse why the ORDBMS is best suited for web > information systems compared to OODBMS and RDBMS, and then design an applicatio > n > using UML (for object concepts of ORDBMS), DFDs and ERAs (for Relational > concepts of ORDBMS) and then implement it using PostgreSQL and JDBC. > > Can you help me in suggesting how should go about it? > > Thanks and regards > > Adien > adien.lopez@sunderland.ac.uk > www.go.to/adienlopez > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > -- > Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk > Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver > PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 > ======================================== > "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and > sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to > dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; and is a > discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." > Hebrews 4:12 > >
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote: > > perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that > they have more systematic and well-thought feature set. > > there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object > relational features) -- share the same original source code! > > my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a > strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational > db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind > of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix > first. this is a totally uninformed and inaccurate assessment ... the current state of OO/OR features in PgSQL has been sitting pretty much on one persons shoulders ... v7.0 has some extensions/fixes added in this arena, and we would very much welcome anyone that wishes to work with us towards further improvements on this ... Adien, if you would like to work with us on such, please feel free to subscribe to the pgsql-hackers mailing list, where such things are discussed quite emotionally, at times :) Chris Bitmead(?) is the one that, to date, has been working on 'unbreaking' our OR/OO bits ... > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Oliver Elphick wrote: > > > I don't have a CS background and don't really feel competent to answer this; > > so I am forwarding it to the PostgreSQL list. > > > > ------- Forwarded Message > > > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:24:41 -0400 > > From: "Adien.Reynald.Suresh.Lopez" <ca9alo@isis.sunderland.ac.uk> > > To: olly@lfix.co.uk > > Subject: PostgreSQL > > > > Dear Oliver > > > > I am a student following an MSc in Advanced Software Engineering in UK. I have > > gone through the PostgreSQL site and have read lot about ORDBMS. I am planning > > to do my MSc dissertation titled, "An investigation into designing and > > developing a web information system applying an ORDBMS approach with PostgreSQL > > > > and Java Technology". > > > > What I want to do is to analyse why the ORDBMS is best suited for web > > information systems compared to OODBMS and RDBMS, and then design an applicatio > > n > > using UML (for object concepts of ORDBMS), DFDs and ERAs (for Relational > > concepts of ORDBMS) and then implement it using PostgreSQL and JDBC. > > > > Can you help me in suggesting how should go about it? > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > Adien > > adien.lopez@sunderland.ac.uk > > www.go.to/adienlopez > > > > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > -- > > Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk > > Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver > > PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 > > ======================================== > > "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and > > sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to > > dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; and is a > > discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." > > Hebrews 4:12 > > > > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote: > > > > > perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that > > they have more systematic and well-thought feature set. > > > > there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object > > relational features) -- share the same original source code! > > > > my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a > > strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational > > db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind > > of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix > > first. > > this is a totally uninformed and inaccurate assessment ... the current > state of OO/OR features in PgSQL has been sitting pretty much on one > persons shoulders ... v7.0 has some extensions/fixes added in this arena, > and we would very much welcome anyone that wishes to work with us towards > further improvements on this ... it's not fair! It is understandable that you love PG, but it does not mean you can be blindly doing that! it is a plain fact that OR/OO features are not the focus in recent years, and some of them are broken or not work right, no mention of documentations. And, informix is certainly a better product in that regards! -- and I also emphasized the crucial advantage of PG that it is open source and people esp. master degree candidate can contribute and leave a good trail. -- Please tell me, why and where is this info is uninformed?!
uninformed in that we have not put the OO/OR features to the side, and, in
fact, have developers actively working on it ...
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that
> > > they have more systematic and well-thought feature set.
> > >
> > > there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object
> > > relational features) -- share the same original source code!
> > >
> > > my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a
> > > strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational
> > > db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind
> > > of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix
> > > first.
> >
> > this is a totally uninformed and inaccurate assessment ... the current
> > state of OO/OR features in PgSQL has been sitting pretty much on one
> > persons shoulders ... v7.0 has some extensions/fixes added in this arena,
> > and we would very much welcome anyone that wishes to work with us towards
> > further improvements on this ...
>
> it's not fair! It is understandable that you love PG, but it does not
> mean you can be blindly doing that!
>
> it is a plain fact that OR/OO features are not the focus in recent years,
> and some of them are broken or not work right, no mention of
> documentations.
> And, informix is certainly a better product in that regards! -- and I also
> emphasized the crucial advantage of PG that it is open source and people
> esp. master degree candidate can contribute and leave a good trail.
>
> -- Please tell me, why and where is this info is uninformed?!
>
>
Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org
kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote:
> >
> > > perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that
> > > they have more systematic and well-thought feature set.
> > >
> > > there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object
> > > relational features) -- share the same original source code!
> > >
> > > my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a
> > > strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational
> > > db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind
> > > of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix
> > > first.
> >
> > this is a totally uninformed and inaccurate assessment ... the current
> > state of OO/OR features in PgSQL has been sitting pretty much on one
> > persons shoulders ... v7.0 has some extensions/fixes added in this arena,
> > and we would very much welcome anyone that wishes to work with us towards
> > further improvements on this ...
>
> it's not fair! It is understandable that you love PG, but it does not
> mean you can be blindly doing that!
>
> it is a plain fact that OR/OO features are not the focus in recent years,
> and some of them are broken or not work right, no mention of
> documentations.
> And, informix is certainly a better product in that regards! -- and I also
> emphasized the crucial advantage of PG that it is open source and people
> esp. master degree candidate can contribute and leave a good trail.
>
> -- Please tell me, why and where is this info is uninformed?!
Wading into the fray...
"Totally uninformed and inaccurate" also strikes me as an unfair
characterization of his response. I think his assessment was informed, at
least if you give any credit to one of the current postgresql hackers,
Peter Eisenstraut:
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=603519208
Kaiq may be wrong, possibly not knowing of more informative conversations
going on in the private pgsql mailing lists (pg-core, etc.), but he is not
coming from left field.
Regards,
Ed Loehr
> > this is a totally uninformed and inaccurate assessment ... the current > > state of OO/OR features in PgSQL has been sitting pretty much on one > > persons shoulders ... v7.0 has some extensions/fixes added in this arena, > > and we would very much welcome anyone that wishes to work with us towards > > further improvements on this ... > > it's not fair! It is understandable that you love PG, but it does not > mean you can be blindly doing that! > > it is a plain fact that OR/OO features are not the focus in recent years, > and some of them are broken or not work right, no mention of > documentations. > And, informix is certainly a better product in that regards! -- and I also > emphasized the crucial advantage of PG that it is open source and people > esp. master degree candidate can contribute and leave a good trail. > > -- Please tell me, why and where is this info is uninformed?! We need to get our OR/OO stuff to be better supported and more polished. It basically works, but when you layer arrays, rules, unions, subqueries, and all the other stuff on top of it, it sometimes breaks. -- Bruce Momjian | http://www.op.net/~candle pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Ed Loehr wrote: > Kaiq may be wrong, possibly not knowing of more informative conversations > going on in the private pgsql mailing lists (pg-core, etc.), but he is not > coming from left field. wow, there is a pg-core, can I get in? -- ok, maybe later, after I prove myself. thanks. I'm happy now. Kai
Thanks. I will keep you informed of the progress. Adien On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 kaiq@realtyideas.com wrote: > > perhaps you'd better first find an evaluation copy of informix, seems that > they have more systematic and well-thought feature set. > > there are some historical relations between informix (esp. Object > relational features) -- share the same original source code! > > my understanding is that more recent pg focus is to make it as a > strong mission critical (i.e. "real", "industrial") relational > db. so, the OO or OR features -- esp. "advanced" ones -- are kind > of putting aside. so, that is why I suggest you take a look on informix > first. > > however, please come back!!! just imagine, if your thesis' title is > "..... using informix and JDBC", it will be much less attractive! also, > you may leave a very pround product or half-product for PG. So, use > informix to get started, but do real work on PG! we are looking forward > to your work. > > BTW, why not OODB? also, java has a new data interface almost identical > to OODB query standard. I know, it's much more difficult, perhaps in > between Master and Ph.D. :-) But it also much more exciting! check > the archive of this listing, there was a discussion about this. > > hope this helps. -- I'll going to do similar work, "someday". > > Kai > > > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Oliver Elphick wrote: > > > I don't have a CS background and don't really feel competent to answer this; > > so I am forwarding it to the PostgreSQL list. > > > > ------- Forwarded Message > > > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:24:41 -0400 > > From: "Adien.Reynald.Suresh.Lopez" <ca9alo@isis.sunderland.ac.uk> > > To: olly@lfix.co.uk > > Subject: PostgreSQL > > > > Dear Oliver > > > > I am a student following an MSc in Advanced Software Engineering in UK. I have > > gone through the PostgreSQL site and have read lot about ORDBMS. I am planning > > to do my MSc dissertation titled, "An investigation into designing and > > developing a web information system applying an ORDBMS approach with PostgreSQL > > > > and Java Technology". > > > > What I want to do is to analyse why the ORDBMS is best suited for web > > information systems compared to OODBMS and RDBMS, and then design an applicatio > > n > > using UML (for object concepts of ORDBMS), DFDs and ERAs (for Relational > > concepts of ORDBMS) and then implement it using PostgreSQL and JDBC. > > > > Can you help me in suggesting how should go about it? > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > Adien > > adien.lopez@sunderland.ac.uk > > www.go.to/adienlopez > > > > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > -- > > Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk > > Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver > > PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 > > ======================================== > > "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and > > sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to > > dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; and is a > > discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." > > Hebrews 4:12 > > > > > >
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Ed Loehr wrote: > Kaiq may be wrong, possibly not knowing of more informative conversations > going on in the private pgsql mailing lists (pg-core, etc.), but he is not > coming from left field. the 'more informative conversations' were held on the totally public pgsql-hackers mailing list, and usually revolve around work that Chris Bitmead (damn, I hope I keep geting this name right?) is doing towards fixing and extending this capability ...
The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Ed Loehr wrote: > > > Kaiq may be wrong, possibly not knowing of more informative conversations > > going on in the private pgsql mailing lists (pg-core, etc.), but he is not > > coming from left field. > > the 'more informative conversations' were held on the totally public > pgsql-hackers mailing list, and usually revolve around work that Chris > Bitmead (damn, I hope I keep geting this name right?) is doing towards > fixing and extending this capability ... True, Chris Bitmead has recently (Feb 2000) been actively arguing for some of his OO ideas (Adien, you might appreciate http://www.tech.com.au/postgres/). But perhaps one should consider Kaiq's assessment in light of these comments from the totally public pgsql-hackers list Mark mentioned: "This past summer this sort of idea was discussed around these parts and most of us came to the conclusion that a) OODBs are a pipe-dream at this point in time, and b) this is not worth doing in PostgreSQL as it stands. - Peter Eisenstraut, pgsql-hackers, Jan. 26, 2000 (http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=577944857) "PostgreSQLs moving to SQL92 has dropped most of OO features as non-compliant ;( For example inheritance is used my some as a convienient means of creating tables with some shared column names/types and adding anything to make it more has met vocal resiostance on this net as being incompatible with current usage." - Hanna Krossing, pgsql-hackers, Jan. 27, 2000 (http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=578316879) In fairness, clearly, his assessment was not "totally inaccurate and uninformed." Regards, Ed Loehr