Re: Comparing databases - Mailing list pgsql-advocacy

josh@agliodbs.com says...


> Well, we're glad to have you to help.   While most of us have a general idea
> of what Firebird is, I don't think anyone on this list actively uses it.
> When/if we do a grid/feature comparison, your help would be invaluable in
> making that comparison with Firebird accurate.


Sounds good to me.


> Also keep in mind that this is an internal discussion list, so people do not
> feel restricted to only extensively researched facts.   There's a lot of
> "throwing ideas out there".


Hmmm... there's a difference between "throwing ideas out there" and
stating falsehoods - I do accept that there was no "malice
aforethought" here, all I'm trying to do is to get the facts clear.


> > Interbase/Firebird is probably (at least as far as I can see) the
> > closest to PostgreSQL in terms of other available databases,

> Yeah.  I've recommended it to a number of people who can't wait for our Win32
> port.


Yes - I can't wait for your Win32 port.


> > MySQL is also Open Source - you may not like the fact
> > that you have to pay for it if you use it in commercial apps, but it is
> > Open Source.


> MySQL is Open Source *released*, true, but it's not Open Source developed.
> All code for MySQL goes through MySQL AB employees.   Corporate ownership of
> OSS projects is an established model ... Eclipse, OpenOffice.org, Sendmail,
> etc. share this model with MySQL ... but it *does* make them significantly
> different from us.


Agreed.



> As a Firebird user, you should know the danger of corporate ownership, after
> Borland "yanked back" the trademark, web resources, and their developers from
> the project.


It was an ill-thought out mess, compounded IIRC by a change in CEO.


>   MySQL AB could do the same thing, and unlike Firebird I'm not
> sure a fork of MySQL, under a different name, would survive.


Could I (in theory - I only wish that I was that good!) take the MySQL
code and add a few lines and call it PaulieSQL and release it under the
GPL?


>  Frankly, I'm
> surprised that Firebird did and it's a testament to that project's user
> community that it's still here.

Still alive and kickin'.


> People may pooh-pooh this warning, but I
> feel that the LGPL-->GPL fiasco with the MySQL libraries shows that MySQL AB,
> as any company would, is willing to put their financial advatage over the
> survival of their OSS project.


Got an URL for the fiasco? I've vaguely heard about this, but am still
not clear.


> Such a "take-back" is not possible with PostgreSQL as nobody "owns" the
> postgresql code, and what IP ownership exists is distributed among the core
> team and contributors.


I must say that I'm confused about who has the right to do what with the
various licences out there - I really will have to sit down and read it
some day.


> > There are a few (perhaps not as many as several) vendors who support
> > Firebird.

> Yah.  More should.  Do you know anybody who does Firebird web hosting?


There's a German crowd - not sure of URL, and maybe a couple more - I'll
check about that and report back.


> > Oh dear - you most certainly *_can_* use Firebird for free in commerical
> > apps.

> Good.  Can you explain the Firebird license to me?  I want to know it in case
> I have a project that calls for Firebird ....

AFAIK, it's virtually identical to the GPL? You can use the database
(through one of the clients supplied) to connect to the database and do
anything that you want. You only have to start revealing your own source
if you change the database source code (or the client also AFAIK).


If you change the *_db_* code, you have to release that - again AFAIK,
you never have to release code to your own app which uses the db as the
back end.


IIRC (and I may be *_completely_* wrong here - the fact that it was
MPL'd by Borland originally, means that they can fold any contributed
code back into their commerical product, but that nobody else can. At
least AFAIK.


> > It's a bit unfair to point at M$ here - locking and versioning each have
> > their pros and cons.

> Sure.  But we feel that versioning is better.   As a professional MSSQL admin,
> I strongly feel that versioning is much better than locking -- insoluable
> deadlocks anyone?.   Since we feel it's the better approach, why shouldn't we
> trumpet it?  The proponents of "transaction-spooling" databases are certainly
> happy to champion their model.


I like the nice pejorative feel of "transaction-spooling" - must use
that somewhere.


> > In Firebird IIRC, you can write dll's or so's in any language you like,
> > and use these as user defined functions.

> Also cool.


Yep - it's nifty - but there are cons - the stuff you write as UDF's
(User Defined Functions) has to be fairly simple, cos it's outside
transaction control.

There is the Stored Procedure and Trigger Language which *_is_* under
transactional control - syntax fairly like Oracle from what I can see.


> > Here I really *_really_* have to object. The Firebird community has an
> > excellent Community spirit, where those who contribute to the engine
> > also help out end users.

> Good.  I may need it someday.


They'll be only to happy to help (in the hope of getting a convert!  8-)
).


> > Again, this is misleading to say the least. Firebird is a fork of
> > Borland's Interbase, which dates from 1981, so Firebird already has the
> > keys to the house (21) whereas PostgreSQL has yet to have its first
> > legal drink (18).

> Touche' !

> Seriously, that point was to point out the durability of PostgreSQL *as an
> open source project*.


Touch� - Riposte!


> One of the big questions I get from companies is "how
> do I know that the PostgreSQL Project will be around in 3 years?"   (my first
> answer is, "How do you know that MSSQL server will be around in 3 years? MS
> has killed projects before, and MSSQL is a money-loser ...")


How do you know that MS SQL Server is a money loser?


> But your point shows that we need to have 2 columns .... "age of software" and
> "age of OSS project".  For that matter, MySQL the software is about 2 years
> older than MySQL-GPL.


<files away under useless factoids> - thanks.


Paul...


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