Re: We all are looped on Internet: request + transport = invariant - Mailing list pgsql-sql

Good day, Joe.

Joe and other respected comrades,
don't be angry, when my letter will be late.
This is caused by technical schedule of our internet.

J> ... and C, PHP, Python, etc., to create an application to input
J> and maintain the data.

Question remains open:
for what people must learn php, if they need mainly
"table1.table2 >>;" or "create view x ...; x>>;"

I explain this thought.
For example, TML consist of two parts: SIMPLE and DIFFICULT.
Border between them is so: users will use mainly
"<tagname> >>;" or "tablename >>;"

Not all of TML will be used by low-skill users.
But this don't canceals, that users need simple part of TML.

J> Do you think
J> if Amazon gave raw read access to their underlying database,
J> many people would jump to query it with SQL, TML or any computer language?

I speak about situation,
when people need to create complex "database-visualizer"
(visualizer is a browser, spreadsheet, etc).
Practice show, that they use only database in this case
(by sql-terminal like "pgsql.exe").

J> you're dealing with a select group of scientists who have
J> these data and they would love to "mine" it and analyze it to the nth
J> degree but they don't want to jump through (too many) hoops to do so.
J> And maybe TML is just what they need.

You are right.

J> And there are others (business people, for example)
J> who also need to analyze the data
J> they have and they don't mind paying for programmers,
J> DBAs, etc. (even if sometimes it may be tough for them explaining *what*
J> they want).  For those, TML may or may not be a solution.  The
J> marketplace will decide.

I think, even high-skill users will prefer TML over php
in simple case like
"tablename>>;"".
I think, even you will prefer in this case.

---statistics

J> Do you actually have statistics of how many people in the general
J> population have learned SQL?

I imply phisicists, optics phisicists, biologists, zoologists,
ecologists, with which i work from 1992 year.

J> how many of those people didn't already know

People of all technical profession
(also chemists, technologists and others, which i meet, but with which i don't work)
already know some computer languages -
oldest generation: fortran, latex, shell (a little);
middle geeration: c, fortran (a little), shell (a little);
youngest generation: 1% use "c", 99% use "pascal"
(not both of them, but often use Delpi).
I speak about russian universities.

If youngest generation meet need to use DBMS,
all of them have learned by SQL
(not PL/SQL, not system tables of DBMS).
Deal with HTML is the same.

People of non-technical professsion don't learn languages in universities
(dispite of computer languages is part of program of universities).
When they meet a need,
half of them ask comarades to do task,
half of them ask comarades to help in studing of languages.
So situation is 50%-50%.

I don't know situation in colleges.

J> or didn't want to bother learning another
J> computer-related language?

People of all profession want to learn a little.
"A little" means the following:
they will learn SQL to work with data,
but will not direct output to browser, spreadsheet, etc by language -
they will use "pgsql.exe" -
despite of presentation in "pgsql.exe" is less comfortable,
than in browser, etc.
Using of tools like "Cristal Report" is very seldom
(i never meet, that russian applied specialist use such tools for databases).

>> For what people must learn php, etc,
>> if they need only output data from database.
J> they can use any number of "user friendly" tools:  PgAdmin

"PgAdmin" is the same for visualization, as "pgsql.exe"

J> Excel with ODBC

Using this is over skills of users.

J> However, someone will still have to learn SQL

SQL is point, which may not be avoided (now).
Thus SQL is separate topic.

J> The average man or woman on the street

For what you say about street ?
Average people, which you can meet on street, make physical job.



Dmitry Turin
http://html6.by.ru
http://sql4.by.ru
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