Re: pg_receivewal makes a bad daemon - Mailing list pgsql-hackers

On Wed, May 05, 2021 at 01:12:03PM -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 12:34 PM Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
> > Is this really a problem we should fix ourselves? Most daemon-managers
> > today will happily be configured to automatically restart a daemon on
> > failure with a single setting since a long time now. E.g. in systemd
> > (which most linuxen uses now) you just set Restart=on-failure (or
> > maybe even Restart=always) and something like RestartSec=10.
> >
> > That said, it wouldn't cover an fsync() error -- they will always
> > restart. The way to handle that is for the operator to capture the
> > error message perhaps, and just "deal with it"?
> 
> Maybe, but if that's really a non-problem, why does postgres itself
> restart, and have facilities to write and rotate log files? I feel
> like this argument boils down to "a manual transmission ought to be
> good enough for anyone, let's not have automatics." But over the years
> people have found that automatics are a lot easier to drive. It may be
> true that if you know just how to configure your system's daemon
> manager, you can make all of this work, but it's not like we document
> how to do any of that, and it's probably not the same on every
> platform - Windows in particular - and, really, why should people have
> to do this much work? If I want to run postgres in the background I
> can just type 'pg_ctl start'. I could even put 'pg_ctl start' in my
> crontab to make sure it gets restarted within a few minutes even if
> the postmaster dies. If I want to keep pg_receivewal running all the
> time ... I need a whole pile of extra mechanism to work around its
> inherent fragility. Documenting how that's typically done on modern
> systems, as you propose further on, would be great, but I can't do it,
> because I don't know how to make it work. Hence the thread.
> 
> > Also, all the above also apply to pg_recvlogical, right? So if we do
> > want to invent our own daemon-init-system, we should probably do one
> > more generic that can handle both.
> 
> Yeah. And I'm not really 100% convinced that trying to patch this
> functionality into pg_receive{wal,logical} is the best way forward ...
> but I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't, either. I think one of
> the basic problems with trying to deploy PostgreSQL in 2021 is that it
> needs so much supporting infrastructure and so much babysitting.
> archive_command has to be a complicated, almost magical program we
> don't provide, and we don't even tell you in the documentation that
> you need it. If you don't want to use that, you can stream with
> pg_receivewal instead, but now you need a complicated daemon-runner
> mechanism that we don't provide or document the need for. You also
> probably need a connection pooler that we don't provide, a failover
> manager that we don't provide, and backup management software that we
> don't provide. And the interfaces that those tools have to work with
> are so awkward and primitive that even the tool authors can't always
> get it right. So I'm sort of unimpressed by any arguments that boil
> down to "what we have is good enough" or "that's the job of some other
> piece of software". Too many things are the job of some piece of
> software that doesn't really exist, or is only available on certain
> platforms, or that has some other problem that makes it not usable for
> everyone. People want to be able to download and use PostgreSQL
> without needing a whole library of other bits and pieces from around
> the Internet.

We do use at least one bit and piece from around the internet to make
our software usable, namely libreadline, the absence of which make
psql pretty much unusable.

That out of the way, am I understanding correctly that you're
proposing that make tools for daemon-izing, logging, connection
management, and failover, and ship same with PostgreSQL? I can see the
appeal for people shipping proprietary forks of the PostgreSQL,
especially ones under restrictive licenses, and I guess we could make
a pretty good case for continuing to center those interests as we have
since the Berkeley days.  Rather than, or maybe as a successor to,
wiring such things into each tool we ship that require them, I'd
picture something along the lines of .sos that could then be
repurposed, modified, etc., as we provide with the distribution as it
is now.

Another possibility would be to look around for mature capabilities
that are cross-platform in the sense that they work on all the
platforms we do.  While I don't think it's likely we'd find them for
all the above use cases under compatible licenses, it's probably worth
a look. At worst, we'd get some idea of how (not) to design the APIs
to them.

I'm going to guess that anything with an incompatible license will
upset people who are accustomed to ensuring that we have what legally
amounts to an MIT license clean distribution, but I'm thinking that
option is at least worth discussing, even if the immediate consensus
is, "libreadline is bad enough. We went to a lot of trouble to purge
that other stuff back in the bad old days. Let's not make that mistake
again."

Best,
David.
-- 
David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778

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