Re: Proposed patch for key management - Mailing list pgsql-hackers

Greetings,

* Bruce Momjian (bruce@momjian.us) wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:11:11AM +0100, Fabien COELHO wrote:
> > > I am not sure what else I can add to this discussion.  Having something
> > > that is completely external might be a nice option, but I don't think it
> > > is the common use-case, and will make the most common use cases more
> > > complex.
> >
> > I'm unsure about what is the "common use case". ISTM that having the
> > postgres process holding the master key looks like a "no" for me in any use
> > case with actual security concern: as the database must be remotely
> > accessible, a reasonable security assumption is that a pg account could be
> > compromised, and the "master key" (if any, that is just one particular
> > cryptographic design) should not be accessible in that case. The first
> > barrier would be pg admin account.
>
> Let's unpack this logic, since I know others, like Alastair Turner (CC
> added), had similar concerns.  Frankly, I feel this feature has limited
> security usefulness, so if we don't feel it has sufficient value, let's
> mark it as not wanted and move on.

Considering the amount of requests for this, I don't feel it's at all
reasonable to suggest that it's 'not wanted'.

> I think there are two basic key configurations:
>
> 1.  pass data encryption keys in from an external source
> 2.  store the data encryption keys wrapped by a key encryption key (KEK)
>     passed in from an external source

I agree those are two basic configurations (though they aren't the only
possible ones).

> The current code implements #2 because it simplifies administration,
> checking, external key (KEK) rotation, and provides good error reporting
> when something goes wrong.  For example, with #1, there is no way to
> rotate the externally-stored key except reencrypting the entire cluster.

Right, and there also wouldn't be a very simple way to actually get PG
going with a single key or a passphrase.

> When using AES256 with GCM (for verification) is #1 more secure than #2?
> I don't think so.  If the Postgres account is compromised, they can grab
> the data encryption keys as the come in from the external script (#1),
> or when they are decrypted by the KEK (#2), or while they are in shared
> memory while the server is running.  If the postgres account is not
> compromised, I don't think it is any easier to get the data key wrapped
> by a KEK than it is to try decrypting the actual heap/index/WAL blocks.
> (Once you find the key for one, they would all decrypt.)

I can see some usefulness for supporting #1, but that has got next to
nothing to do with what this patch is about and is all about the *next*
step, which is to actually look at supporting encryption of the rest of
the cluster, beyond just the keys.  We need to get past this first step
though, and it seems to be nearly impossible to do so, which has
frustrated multiple attempts to actually accomplish anything here.

I agree that none of these approaches address an online compromise of
the postgres account.  Thankfully, that isn't actually what this is
intended to address and to talk about that case is just a distraction
that isn't solvable and wastes time.

Thanks,

Stephen