Re: Certification

From: David Fetter
Subject: Re: Certification
Date: ,
Msg-id: 20151105185802.GA25400@fetter.org
(view: Whole thread, Raw)
In response to: Re: Certification  (Sameer Kumar)
Responses: Re: Certification  (Sameer Kumar)
List: pgsql-advocacy

Tree view

Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
 Re: Certification  (, )
 Re: Certification  (Bob Lunney, )
  Re: Certification  (Luca Ferrari, )
  Re: Certification  (, )
   Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  ("Gilberto Castillo", )
   Re: Certification  (Bob Lunney, )
  Re: Certification  (Jaime Casanova, )
   Re: Certification  (Sameer Kumar, )
    Re: Certification  (julyanto SUTANDANG, )
    Re: Certification  (David Fetter, )
     Re: Certification  (Sameer Kumar, )
 Re: Certification  (Josh Berkus, )
  Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
 Re: Certification  (Josh Berkus, )
  Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  ("Gilberto Castillo", )
   Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
  Re: Certification  (, )
  Re: Certification  (Robert Haas, )
   Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
    Re: Certification  (Robert Haas, )
     Certification In Cuba  ("Gilberto Castillo", )
     Re: Certification  (julyanto SUTANDANG, )
      Re: Certification  (Joshua Kramer, )
       Re: Certification  ("Gunnar \"Nick\" Bluth", )
       Re: Certification  (Sameer Kumar, )
        Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
       Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
     Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
      Re: Certification  (Robert Haas, )
     Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
  Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
   Re: Certification  (Jean-Paul Argudo, )
 Re: Certification  (Josh Berkus, )
 Re: Certification  (Jaime Casanova, )
  Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  ("Gilberto Castillo", )
   Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  (Michael Meskes, )
 Re: Certification  (Josh Berkus, )
  Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Certification  ("Gilberto Castillo", )
  Re: Certification  (PostgreSQL - Hans-Jürgen Schönig<>, )

On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 03:09:38PM +0000, Sameer Kumar wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 5:44 AM Jaime Casanova <
> > wrote:
>
> > On 29 October 2015 at 08:52, Bob Lunney <> wrote:
> > > Ah,  the old "certification" fallacy!
> > >
> >
> > while i agree a certification doesn't say much... i also know that
> > people is continously asking me for certified people or
> > certifications...
> >
> >
> Yes, I get similar request whenever we take up a new project. Because they
> think certified professionals can deliver a project very well. I don't
> blame them. Here in ASEAN (specially in Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand) I
> have seen botched-up implementation by self-claimed experts/freelancer for
> PostgreSQL.

If you think it's different elsewhere, I have bad news, or good news,
if knowing you're not alone in this situation makes you feel better.
People who engage these people without checking references and doing
their own due diligence are taking risks.

This would be true in the presence of a certification as well.

I'm not against making another certification program, but let's be
very realistic about what such a program could and could not do.

Complete or even plausible protection against incompetence and malice
aforethought is NOT among the things a certification could accomplish,
and you would be doing a disservice to the idea by selling it as that.

Even assuming a rigorous, task-based test with good fuzzing and
frequent updates, I see no proposals on the table for ensuring that
the person who takes the test is the same one who presents the
credential.  Any such proposal simply starts a technology war between
people wanting such credentials without being qualified and that
system.

Then there's the question of retention.  Performing well on an
examination one day (or week, or however long it takes) is not the
same as long-term mastery of the subject.  A person can, and many
students do, cram for a test, do well on it, and fail utterly to apply
the knowledge three weeks later, let alone three years.

> Earlier someone mentioned about the non-popularity of EDB certification in
> ASEAN.  I am not sure of history, but in recent past (24-30months time) we
> have seen a lot of people taking up EDB's PostgreSQL training and
> certification. This has gone hand-in-hand with higher adoption of
> PostgreSQL and EDB in ASEAN. And as more organisation take up PosgreSQL
> more people will take up certification exams. Even professional look up to
> certification as a value add in their resume and so certification authority
> should really check their merit before awarding it.
> Also I have seen cases of large BFSI and telecom segment customers where
> they want to make sure that they have certified staff before promoting a
> new technology to be used for critical system. This is again where I have
> seen learning path/training and certification plays an important role.

I'm curious about situations you've seen that involve free software,
especially software where there isn't an authoritative vendor.  It's
one thing to certify on, say, Red Hat.  It's a very different thing to
certify on Linux as a whole, a situation much more comparable to the
PostgreSQL one.

> I feel while certifications are really important both to back the adoption
> and also to promote more adoption, it has to be backed by a proper training
> or learning path. At the same time a lot of effort has to be spent in
> maintaining the level of scrutiny of skills.
>
>
> *Disclaimer:* My employer is a training partner and master partner to EDB
> and I am myself a certified trainer. My opinion is my own but is based on
> the experience of delivering training to about 150-200 candidates during
> more than 15 training sessions in last 2-2.5 years of time.

As Josh mentioned, training is a business, and if you do it right, you
can do a lot of good with it as a business.  I'm not seeing a
compelling argument here for having the PostgreSQL project itself
divert scarce resources toward supporting this business, though.
Getting awesome new software out the door each year is already
stretching those resources thin.

Cheers,
David.
--
David Fetter <> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: 

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pgsql-advocacy by date:

From: David Fetter
Date:
Subject: Re: Certification
From: Sameer Kumar
Date:
Subject: Re: Certification