Re: pg_background (and more parallelism infrastructure patches) - Mailing list pgsql-hackers

On 2014-11-10 14:54:15 -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Andres Freund <andres@2ndquadrant.com> wrote:
> >> That's an issue to which we may need to engineer some solution, but
> >> not in this patch.  Overall, the patch's architecture is modeled
> >> closely on the way we synchronize GUCs to new backends when using
> >> EXEC_BACKEND, and I don't think we're going do any better than stating
> >> with that and working to file down the rough edges as we go.  So I'd
> >> like to go ahead and commit this.
> >
> > Did you check out whether PGC_BACKEND GUCs work? Other than that I agree
> > that we can just solve further issues as we notice them. This isn't
> > particularly intrustive.
> 
> Is the scenario you're concerned about this one:
> 
> 1. Start postmaster.
> 2. Start a user session.
> 3. Change a PGC_BACKEND GUC in postgresql.conf.
> 4. Reload.
> 5. Launch a background worker that uses this code.

No, that's not what I was thinking of. Consider:

export pg_libdir=$(pg_config --libdir)
mkdir $pg_libdir/plugins
ln -s $pg_libdir/auto_explain.so $pg_libdir/plugins/
PG_OPTIONS='-c local_preload_libraries=auto_explain' psql

and use pg_background() (or something else using this infrastructure) in
that context.
Without having reread your relevant code I'd expect a:
ERROR:  55P02: parameter "local_preload_libraries" cannot be set after connection start
because the code would try to import the "user session's"
local_preload_libraries values into the background process - after that
actually already has done its initialization.

> It should end up with the same values there as the active session, not
> the current one from postgresql.conf.  But we want to verify that's
> the behavior we actually get.   Right?

But that's also something worthwile to check.

> >> -- It doesn't handle types without send/receive functions.  I thought
> >> that was tolerable since the functions without such types seem like
> >> mostly edge cases, but Andres doesn't like it.  Apparently, BDR is
> >> makes provisions to either ship the tuple as one big blob - if all
> >> built-in types - or else use binary format where supported and text
> >> format otherwise.  Since this issue is common to BDR, parallelism, and
> >> pg_background, we might want to introduce some common infrastructure
> >> for it, but it's not too clear to me right now what that should look
> >> like.
> >
> > I think we definitely need to solve this - but I'm also not at all that
> > sure how.
> >
> > For something like pg_background it's pretty trivial to fall back to
> > in/out when there's no send/recv. It's just a couple of lines, and the
> > portal code has the necessary provisions. So solving it for
> > pg_background itself is pretty trivial.
> 
> That's not really the interesting part of the problem, I think.  Yeah,
> pg_background can be made to speak text format if we really care.  But
> the real issue is that even with the binary format, converting a tuple
> in on-disk format into a DataRow message so that the other side can
> reconstruct the tuple and shove it into an executor slot (or wherever
> it wants to shove it) seems like it might be expensive.  You might
> have data on that; if it's not expensive, stop here.  If it is
> expensive, what we really want to do is figure out some way to make it
> safe to copy the tuple into the shared memory queue, or send it out
> over the socket, and have the process on the other end use it without
> having to revalidate the whole thing column-by-column.

Yes, sending the tuples as-is is noticeable win. I've not fully analyzed
where the difference is - I'm suspect it's to a large degree because it
requires less copying/memory allocations. But also some of the send/recv
functions aren't exactly cheap in themselves.

For BDR we've forgone problems around changing type definitions and such
by saying only builtin types get to do the 'as-is' stuff. That can be
expanded later, but that's it for now. For those there's no chance that
the type definition changes or anything.

A general problem is that you really can't allow this to happen outside
a controlled setting - manipulating data on the 'Datum' level allows you
to do bad things.

> > But, as you say, pg_background
> > itself isn't a primary goal (although a nice demonstration, with some
> > real world applications).  There's enough differences between the
> > parallelism and the replication cases that I'm not entirely sure how
> > much common ground there is. Namely replication has the additional
> > concerns of version differences, trust (don't use blobs if you don't
> > fully trust the other side), and differences in the allocated oids
> > (especially relevant for arrays which, very annoyingly, embed the oid in
> > the send/recv format).
> 
> Yeah.  It would be nice to use the same code for deciding what to do
> in a particular case.  It seems like it ought to be possible to have
> one rule for whether a tuple with a given set of data types is safe to
> ship in the on-disk format.  For pg_background/parallelism, it's
> enough if that function returns true; for BDR, there might be
> additional criteria applied before deciding to do it that way.  But
> they could use the same decision tree for part of it.

Yes, that'd be a good idea.

> What would be even better is to find some way to MAKE IT SAFE to send
> the undecoded tuple.  I'm not sure what that would look like.

How do you define 'SAFE' here? Safe against concurrent SQL level
activity? Safe against receiving arbitrary data?

I see little chance in being safe against the latter. But imo that's
fine. Neither is WAL shipping. And that's perfectly fine for most
usecases...

Greetings,

Andres Freund

-- Andres Freund                       http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training &
Services