Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan - Mailing list pgsql-general

Hello,

Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from 
country less earnings. For examplo Cuba.


El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió:
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:
>> 
>> My comments:
>> 
>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of
>> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>> 
>> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project
>> into disrepute, ..."
>> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen
>> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be
>> handled where they occur not here.
> 
>  This is good point. There are those who would think that one has
> performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a
> similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case.
> This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.
> 
> It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
> committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
> chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.
> 
> If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
> include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for
> it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
> 
>> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered
>> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such
>> conduct. "
> 
>>> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of
>>> people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with
>>> someone to have it called offensive. This section should be
>>> removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the
>>> paragraphs above it.
> 
> "considered offensive by fellow members"
> 
>  Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:
> 
>> I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking
>> to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at
>> that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get
>> their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender
>> is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers
>> in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm
>> suggesting that whoever
> 
>  "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
> offensive. Which is correct?
> 
> I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.
> 
> This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to
> come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of
> conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this
> goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
> 
>>> I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university
>>> that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc,
>>> because of the history of slavery.
>> 
>> The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use
>> the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.
>> 
>>> I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and
>>> "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of
>>> resolving a technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what
>>> I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously
>>> suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is
>>> conceivable that someone might object!
>> 
>> Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
>> acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
>> Knowing your audience is important.
> 
> I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and
> mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with
> red MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do
> better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be
> proud of ourselves.
> 
>>> Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell
>>> government Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that
>>> are very Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they
>>> found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found
>>> the gestures obscene. The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay
>>> gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger --
>>> nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional
>>> Greeks found them offensive.
>> 
>> Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word
>> c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and
>> highly frowned upon.
> 
> Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and
> used to addressing these sorts of issues.
> 
>>> Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!
>> 
>> Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you
>> wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That
>> too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the
>> restrictions rational.
> 
> I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I
> think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work
> together.  Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a
> collegial and generally respectful way around eachother.
> 
> --
> 
> Best Regards,
> Chris Travers
> Database Administrator
> 
> Tel: +49 162 9037 210 | Skype: einhverfr | www.adjust.com [1]
> Saarbrücker Straße 37a, 10405 Berlin
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.adjust.com/