Re: [HACKERS] Enticing interns to PostgreSQL - Mailing list pgsql-advocacy

Hi,

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Zend's business model is beneficial for them, but bad for PHP
>> community. The classic example is absence of bytecode compilation
>> (available in all other major scripting languages) in default PHP. To
>> get this you need to pay money to Zend for Super Advanced Zend
>> Enterprise Ready Accelerator
>
> No you don't. PHP is BSD style licensed just like PostgreSQL. If you
> want Super Advanced Zend Enterprise Ready Accelerator and don't want to
> pay for it, you can create your own and several already have.

First of all, PHP is two parts: there is language itself licensed under BSD-like
license and there is Zend engine (virtual machine running the bytecode) licensed
under QPL-like license. Which essentially means that commercial "forks" of PHP
are feasible only if you use some other virtual machine. This is a huge
difference to pure-BSD PostgreSQL with its multiple forks.

Of course I know about existing accelerators, but they are third party addons,
in other languages this is built-in feature. Why does Command Prompt sell
*integrated* replication solution?

>> Platform Plus, or whatever the thing is called now. The guys have a
>> sh*tload of engine level bugs in the language and refuse to fix them,
>
> Again BSD style license, anyone can jump in at any time and fix them.

Ah, the classic line: send in the patches. The Ultimate Open Source Argument
That Should Make The Opponent Shut Up Immediately And Crawl Away. My point was
that Zend employs the best experts on PHP internals but these experts are busy
doing stuff that brings money.

>> Maybe Zend is making inroads into the enterprise, but they are
>> damaging their ecosystem in the process, by alienating the developers
>> [1] that are building the major Open Source applications in and around
>> PHP.
>
> How are they damaging "their" ecosystem. It isn't "their" ecosystem, it
> is the PHP communities, Zend is just one (albeit powerful within the
> community) member.
>
> If people were truly unhappy with the direction of PHP somebody would
> fork it, fix it, and create PHP++.

See above. There is (was?) a project to run PHP on Parrot virtual machine, that
may even some day become your PHP++.

> The unfortunate part is that most PHP programmers don't care or don't
> have the skills required to fix the problems.

The unfortunate part is that most Java programmers don't care or don't have the
skills required to fix bugs in a Java virtual machine.

The unfortunate part is that most DBMS administrators don't care or don't have
the skills required to fix bugs in their DBMS.

Er, what was your point, again?

> I am not saying Zend is a good or bad company, I honestly don't know but
> your arguments don't make sense to me.

OK, once again: though PHP-the-language is BSD-like licensed, there is a crucial
part of infrastructure needed to run it which is owned by a company. And this
company obviously cares more about selling their products than about making the
language they depend upon better. Why give something for free when you can sell it?

To sum it up:
a) Zend example does not apply to PostgreSQL for reasons described above;
b) Even if it did apply, that's hardly an example we'd like to follow.