Re: For the ametures. (related to "Are we losing momentum?") - Mailing list pgsql-hackers

(please note that the word is "amateur" - it comes from French/Latin,
meaning people who do things for the love of it).

There are lots of cron clones for Windows - try a Google search.

Also, there is a native Windows port of Pg 7.2.1 available - we have been
using it for a couple of months now on a small project without a single
hitch. Search this mailing list for details.

Like you, we eagerly await the official Windows port in 7.4. (then we'll
have shema, for example).

Part of the problem that amateurs often face in dealing with things like a
DBMS is that their lack of formal training leads them to expect things to
work in some intuitive fashion, and they don't (for very good technical
reasons). As someone who in a past life had to teach relational theory and
practice, I can tell you that just getting across the idea of a Cartesian
product can be quite hard. And as a former DBA I can tell you that even
seasoned professional developers often don't/can't take the trouble to
analyse what their queries are doing and why they demand so much in
resources. Running a DBMS (*any* DBMS) which has significant requirements is
unfortunately something that requires both understanding and experience. It
never "just works".

Finally, one of the important things for my particular situation, is that Pg
comes with a BSDish license, which means we have no issues with bundling it.
AFAIK it's pretty much alone in that.

andrew


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Clewett" <B.Clewett@roadrunner.uk.com>
To: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>; <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] For the ametures. (related to "Are we losing
momentum?")


> Hi Dave,
>
> A brief defence of my posting.  After which I'll retire to my side of
> the fence :)
>
> >>- A true Windows version which people can learn their craft on.
> >
> > Coming with 7.4...
>
> I look forward to this greatly.  Maybe here I'll have the chance to fix
> some problems for the greater community.
>
> >>- Tools which look like Access, to do row level data
> >>editing with no SQL.
> >
> >
> > http://www.pgadmin.org/
> >
> > It looks more like SQL Server's Enterprise Manager but does most if not
> > all of what I expect you need.
>
> Sorry, my fault, an excellent program.
>
> > The tarball includes the complete documentation in HTML format, and in
> > pgAdmin there's a searchable copy in the main chm help file.
>
> But not the API's.  Not in one central location.  Some of it, the stuff
> I use, is on GBorg, and in inconsistent format.  I have personally found
> some documentation very fragmented.  So a subtle point about an ability
> is lost as I have assumed all comments to be in a few pages, and missed
> something vital or relevent in another sourse.  Eg, see my comment at
> the end.  But it's better than msdn :)
>
> >>- Data types like 'ENUM' which appeal to ametures.
> >
> > Isn't that just syntactic sugar for a column with a check for specific
> > values on it?
>
> Yes :)  By point is not that PostgreSQL is lacking, only that the
> ameture finds others more friendly and inviting.
>
> Although this may be a point which is irrelevent?
>
> My personal 'gripe' was when reading through the postings, some people
> considered people who have not the time, patience or ability, to learn
> PostgreSQL completelly, somehow not worthy.
>
> I wanted to support us dumb users! :)
>
> >>- There are no administrative mandatorys.  Eg, VACUUM.
> >>(A stand-alone
> >>commercial app, like an Email client, will be contrainted by
> >>having to
> >>be an app and a DBA in one.)
> >
> > PostgreSQL is by no means alone in this requirement. SQL Server for
> > example has 'optimizations' that are performed usually as part of a
> > scheduled maintenance plan and are analagous to vacuum in some ways.
>
> Is this a weekness in DBMS's that don't require this?  (MySQL, Liant
> etc.)  Is there a way of building a guarbage collector into the system?
> My Windows PC has no 'cron'.
>
> >>- The tables (not innodb) are in different files of the
> >>same name.
> >>Allowing the OS adminitrator great ability.  EG, putting tables on
> >>separate partitions and therefore greatly speeding performance.
> >
> > One reason for not doing this is that a table in PostgreSQL might span
> > mutiple files if it exceeds a couple of gigs in size.
>
> They used multile files for tables, with a common pefix of the table
> name.  But they have dropped this them selves now.
>
> I miss the way with MySQL I could delete a table, or move it, or back it
> up, manually using 'rm', 'mv' or 'cp'.
>
> Working with IDE drives on PC's,  you can double the performace of a DB
> just by putting half the tables on a disk on another IDE chain.  Adding
> a DB using 'tar' is very a powerful ability.
>
> But hay, if I missed it that much, I would not have moved! :)
>
> >>- They have extensive backup support.  Including now,
> >>concurrent backup
> >>without user interuption or risk of inconsistency.
> >
> >
> > So does PostgreSQL (pg_dump/pg_dumpall).
>
> I have used this, and it's a great command.
>
> I could not work out from the documentation whether it takes a snapshot
> at the start time, or archives data at the time it find's it.  The
> documentation (app-pg-dump.html).  As the documentation does not clarify
> this very important point, I desided it's not safe to use when the
> system is in use.
>
> Can this command can be used, with users in the system making heavy
> changes, and when takes many hours to complete, does produce a valid and
> consistent backup?
>
> If so, you have all MySQL has here and in a more useful format.
>
> > PS, it's nice you decided not to go to the Dark Side :-)
>
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
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