Re: How to run PostgreSQL? - Mailing list pgsql-admin

On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:19:29 -0400
Ray Stell <stellr@cns.vt.edu> wrote:

> don't you need root to do package management?  Maybe that is just
> Red Hat like.  Hmm, not on OS X.

Well you expect that every single header that postgresql needs to be
built from source is already on the system? If not you need access to
package management anyway. And if you don't have super user
privileges, you shouldn't be doing the installation of a database in
the first place at all.


> to gain control over the system issue.

Compiler shouldn't be installed on a production system in the first
place.

By installing software from source you loose control. For example, take
a look at eaccelerator for PHP on debian. There is no package, so after
every critical update in PHP, I need to:

# aptitude install gcc php-dev
# cd ~/php-eaccel
# make clean
# phpize
# make
# make install
# aptitude purge gcc php-dev (along with dozen of dependencies)

And now, that is pretty straightforward, because if I don't do that,
Apache won't start because PHP won't be able to load eaccelerator.so.
And compilation time is around 2 or 3 seconds :) But if the software
was a database engine like PostgreSQL, wich depends on dozens of libs,
I just don't want to get in that situation. That means more downtime
after upgrade of every system component PostgreSQL depends on. And you
call that enterprise?

Not to mention if software is from source, it is in most cases
neglected in security aspect. Nobody monitors security issues for every
app, it is much easier to lean on the distribution vendor.

And what about system hygiene? When stuff is installed from packages,
you at least know where does a file come from, has it been modified,
and from when it is there.

And I could go on forever accounting bad things on this subject. Look
at what happens to Windows, because it doesn't have proper package
management... Look and learn.


> From my perspective pg has always been at the enterprise layer, so
> sysadmin/dba are on the hook.  Those guys don't like to hand over
> control to anyone, and therefore the commands are relevant.  Isn't
> that  why they are in the manual.

I'm afraid you're mixing a lot of stuff. If you use packages, you are
not off the hook. You don't hand over anything to anyone. You think
that ./configure && make && make install run by you produce better
output than same set of commands run by package maintainer, just
because _you_ have run it?! I frankly don't understand logic behind any
of these points.

And commands are in manual because there are dozens of distros out
there (and some of them just lack the pg packages). Also someone
has to show to package maintainers how to actually build the damn thing?


> I see where you are coming from, standardization in order to lower
> maintenance costs.  Maybe the install guide needs a branch per your
> approach?  The fact that this thread exists might be a testimony to
> that.

You are (again) going in totaly wrong direction. Packages have nothing
to do with standardization or maintenance costs. System admin won't get
more $$$ if he compiles stuff from source and not just apt-gets them.
Maintenance has nothing to do with INSTALLATION OF SOFTWARE. It's easy
to install, everyone can build the damn thing. Problem is tunning,
troubleshooting and stuff like that. And packages help even in that,
because you are not alone with your obscure compiled application and
some strange error for which you can't conclude is it because of your
environment, or is it pgsql binary problem. If package has problem,
chances are very high someone noticed it before you and reported it,
and you got fixed revision.


After reading all of your comments, I must give you a friendly advice.
Re-learn logic behind system administration, because you are bloody
wrong in most of cases presented here... And these are fundamentals on
top of which you build on :(




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